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[T. Wolfe Tone]

I feel sorry for all of you.  Our culture seems to require us to cultivate deliberate cynicism rather than risk being accidentally thought naive.

OK, you know very well that I'm not a hard right demagogue like SG. I don't happen to agree with alot of the conclusions in your husband's paper but that doesn't mean I write off global warming as a theory altogether. That sentence, however, is deeply worrying because implies that we should have faith. When that occurs, we re not dealing with a scinentific projection, a problem, as it is, but a religion which demands it's members blindly follow a central idea without question. That's why cynicism is important. To keep ideas in check.

Anyway, the whole global warming thing can be reversed for 250 million dollars. All you need is a device for putting trace amounts of Carbon Sulfate into the stratosphere. Volcanos provide the same function so this Icelandic unpronouncable will sort out the norther hemisphere for a while.

[T. Wolfe Tone]

I know I'm supposed to be off this but it's 9.30 in the morning and I shall hit up some of the city's world war 2 museums from about 10.30 after peak hour ends for the tube.

[Thaluikhain]

That sentence, however, is deeply worrying because implies that we should have faith. When that occurs, we re not dealing with a scinentific projection, a problem, as it is, but a religion which demands it's members blindly follow a central idea without question.

Exactly.  All Mez has been able to do is blindly recite the mantra of "biosphere collapse".  Yes, she ignored it last time, but what the fuck does that actually mean?  As a scary sounding phrase intended to frighten people into agreeing with your viewpoint, it's not bad, but I'd hope that even Mez would want something more than that.

And, seriously, Mez, did you not see the problem with using wikipedia (ie, a source which anyone can edit at will) as evidence for a stance on a massively controversial topic.  Admittedly, yes, you could use it as a jumping off point, as it will gives links to actual scholarly sites on the matter, which is very noticeably what you didn't do.

Mez, I'm sure you're sick of people talking down to you, and I can see why you'd want to be an authority on something for a change, but for that to work you really want to restrict yourself to, you know, reality.  Sound bites, half-baked pseudo science and science fiction novels do exist in reality, yes, but it's really not the same thing.

[Mez]

... that doesn't mean I write off global warming as a theory altogether. That sentence, however, is deeply worrying because implies that we should have faith.

Yes, I admit I tend to have faith in what most climate scientists agree on.  The ones who don't are generally backed by the petrochemical companies, or are mindlessly committed to endless economic growth.

Anyway, the whole global warming thing can be reversed for 250 million dollars. All you need is a device for putting trace amounts of Carbon Sulfate into the stratosphere. Volcanos provide the same function

Yes, but the acidity of the oceans would rise even more. And a study published in 2008 in the journal of geophysical research concluded that the injection of sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere would disrupt the monsoon cycle, reducing the food supply for billions of people.

Geoengineering is not a viable alternative to global warming, as we simply don't know enough about the possible side-effects.  Same with volcanoes.

We could all paint our roofs white like they are doing in California, I suppose.

And Thal I would argue that the global warming "debate" is a bit more than sound bites, half-baked pseudo science and science fiction.  It's real science, by real scientists, the vast majority of whom agree that global warming is real and being daily exacerbated by our activities.

By the way, the first person to mention Y2K will be shot.

[Thaluikhain]

Yes, I admit I tend to have faith in what most climate scientists agree on.  The ones who don't are generally backed by the petrochemical companies, or are mindlessly committed to endless economic growth.

Not really.  While it is established that humans are changing the climate to some extent, exactly how much is still unclear, even without the fanatics on both sides sticking their oars into it.

And Thal I would argue that the global warming "debate" is a bit more than sound bites, half-baked pseudo science and science fiction.  It's real science, by real scientists, the vast majority of whom agree that global warming is real and being daily exacerbated by our activities.

The global warming debate in general, perhaps.  Not so much you in this thread, which was what I was getting at.

By the way, the first person to mention Y2K will be shot.

Um...what?  At the risk of getting someone shot, what do you mean?

[Mez]

Oh well, it's one of those non-events.  People look back and say "It all amounted to nothing after all that flap".  I hear this example of storm-in-a-teacup cynicism quite often when climate change comes up, that's all.

For who can say what would have happened had we completely ignored the problem?

[Thaluikhain]

Rather an odd comparison.

[SG]

Exactly.  All Mez has been able to do is blindly recite the mantra of "biosphere collapse".  Yes, she ignored it last time, but what the fuck does that actually mean?  As a scary sounding phrase intended to frighten people into agreeing with your viewpoint, it's not bad, but I'd hope that even Mez would want something more than that.

And, seriously, Mez, did you not see the problem with using wikipedia (ie, a source which anyone can edit at will) as evidence for a stance on a massively controversial topic.  Admittedly, yes, you could use it as a jumping off point, as it will gives links to actual scholarly sites on the matter, which is very noticeably what you didn't do.

Mez, I'm sure you're sick of people talking down to you, and I can see why you'd want to be an authority on something for a change, but for that to work you really want to restrict yourself to, you know, reality.  Sound bites, half-baked pseudo science and science fiction novels do exist in reality, yes, but it's really not the same thing.

Did Vis grow up when I blinked or somesuch?

SG

[Thaluikhain]

Hmmm...

Better not blink any more, or she might age to dust before our eyes!

And then a weird wind will appear out of nowhere and blow her remains away, probably.

[T. Wolfe Tone]

Yes, but the acidity of the oceans would rise even more. And a study published in 2008 in the journal of geophysical research concluded that the injection of sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere would disrupt the monsoon cycle, reducing the food supply for billions of people.

Geoengineering is not a viable alternative to global warming, as we simply don't know enough about the possible side-effects.  Same with volcanoes.

We could all paint our roofs white like they are doing in California, I suppose.

We know as much about the effects of geo-engineering as the impact of green house gasses and you are prepared to make wide ranging, expensive and potentially dangerous decisions in stopping projected problems that arises from that.

[SG]

We know as much about the effects of geo-engineering as the impact of green house gasses and you are prepared to make wide ranging, expensive and potentially dangerous decisions in stopping projected problems that arises from that.

Wow, even the younger generation of Lefties are slagging off the moronic old farts with teh weapon of choice being... logic.

Fark.

SG

[Majorie]

I know I'm supposed to be off this but it's 9.30 in the morning and I shall hit up some of the city's world war 2 museums from about 10.30 after peak hour ends for the tube.

Peak hour is well gone by 9.30. Try being on the tube at 8. It is madness. 'Move down inside the carriage please, move down inside the acrraige please, MOVE DOWN INSIDE THE FUCKING CARRIAGE!'

[Mez]

We know as much about the effects of geo-engineering as the impact of green house gasses and you are prepared to make wide ranging, expensive and potentially dangerous decisions in stopping projected problems that arises from that.

Dangerous decisions?  Who am I to make any decisions about it at all?  But think about it, Wolfe - so you add sulphur dioxide to combat the greenhouse gases - when do you stop doing this?  Ever?  And what will the effects be?  We don't know, except that we can wave goodbye to blue skies forever.  We continue pouring sulphur and CO² into the atmosphere in perpetuity, and who knows?  It might all even out.  And it might not.

As to using Wiki as a source, I actually googled "current sea level rise" and got 3,400,000 results.  I just picked the first one, and qualified that with "for a start".  I don't actually see any problem with that.  Anyone can google it and find that the sea level has, as far as we can tell, risen more than expected over the past decade or so.  It might have nothing to do with the Ross Shelf and the melting of Arctic sea ice.  On the other hand, it probably does.

Back to Sci-fi.  George Turner wrote a book called The Sea in Summer, set in Melbourne after the sea level has risen.  This book sold nearly a million copies and won the 1988 Arthur C Clarke award, nevertheless it is out of print and only used editions are now available.  I highly recommend it to sci-fi lovers and people who can't imagine what a sea level rise of a mere metre would mean to most of us Australians who tend to live on the coast (luckily I don't).  But you can't get it from a library and to me this begs the question of why not?  I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but the general unavailability of this award-winning book is mysterious.

Anyway, I'm not particularly interested in winning over climate change skeptics - time will do that (and less time than you may think).  I just think it's sad that humanity's hubris is going to lead to a catastrophic world, and I feel very glad that I ensured my kids had martial arts training.  Because when all our systems DO break down, the world will become an extremely dangerous place, in their lifetimes.

[Emperor Fadeaway]

Humans need to wind back on the ego a bit and realise that if the planet wants to kill us, there is fuck all we can do about it.

So just kick back and enjoy the ride, while it lasts.

And as for the year 2500 reference, aren't we going to be hit by an asteroid long before then? The sun may well not rise that day, we might already be a part of it.

So fuck off with your doomsday bullshit.

Or start up a cult at least. That's where this rant belongs.