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Author Topic: What hope Iraq?  (Read 3082 times)

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Thaluikhain

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Re: What hope Iraq?
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2009, 11:57:32 PM »

Or not.

How do you think Saddam and those kind of guys actually control their populace?

By rationalising themselves with some other terrible threat.  Fear of yourself is important, but fear of someone else you are protecting the people from is much better.  Save us from the Imperialist Americans, save us from the commies, save us from the Zionists, save us from whomever burned down the Reichstag.

Your lack of consistency in argument is appalling.  We're talking me here, my proposals or at teh very least people who think like me.  *I* am the will.

That's all very well, but unless you have masses of like-minded and dedicated people, you are not able to achieve much.

None of which changes the basic fact that air power cannot hold ground, air power cannot be continually available, airpower cannot function without extensive ground support.

Fair enough.  I thought you meant simply crushing the enemy's capability to fight, for which holding ground isn't as important.  And as to ground support, it doesn't have to be in the same nation, which is a definate plus.


I'm afraid I'm not going to agree with you on the usefulness of an war machine designed in the early 80s to fight USSR tanks in modern warfare.  If you are looking to control a hostile city, to root out insurgents without destroying everything else, an MBT isn't tactically flexible enough.  If you're not concerned with collateral damage, and simply want to damage the enemy's capability to fight, you've no reason to put your forces in harm's way.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 12:01:20 AM by Tigerkhain »
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SG

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Re: What hope Iraq?
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2009, 12:07:26 AM »

That's all very well, but unless you have masses of like-minded and dedicated people, you are not able to achieve much.

There will always be enough.

Just look at Pauline Hanson, had she siezed her moment properly anything could have happened.

Scary as that is...

I'm afraid I'm not going to agree with you on the usefulness of an war machine designed in the early 80s to fight USSR tanks in modern warfare.  If you are looking to control a hostile city, to root out insurgents without destroying everything else, an MBT isn't tactically flexible enough.  If you're not concerned with collateral damage, and simply want to damage the enemy's capability to fight, you've no reason to put your forces in harm's way.

MBT dominance (assuming you accept the Abrams/Challenger 2/Leopard 2 exceed anything the USSR has by a significant margin) now means we are very unlikely to fight even the Soviets on an open battlefield because it is now readily apparent to our enemies that they simply can't win that way with current technology.

Which means we really need to figure out "asymetric warfare".  As the British did to teh Boer so must we do to others.  Rather than building pillboxes everywhere we can use our secure MBTs knowing they can't be harmed as front line maintainers providing shelter for our valuable troops.  If the platoon leader needs to call in artillery support the MBT is right there with HE capability.  If the platoon leader of a "search and capture" mission runs into a house full of nasties he can call for overwhelming backup, if a bunch of Islamists attack your cricket team then they and their vehicles can be selectively neutralised very quickly

And most of all, your troops are safe.

SG
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Thaluikhain

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Re: What hope Iraq?
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2009, 12:38:50 AM »

There will always be enough.

Just look at Pauline Hanson, had she siezed her moment properly anything could have happened.

Scary as that is...

Were they worth anything though?  An angry mob is one thing, a large dedicated, professional group of people that can actually get things done is another.  As I recall, One Nation's response to economic problems was "print more money"...if they'd taken power, I wouldn't expect them to know how to use it.

MBT dominance (assuming you accept the Abrams/Challenger 2/Leopard 2 exceed anything the USSR has by a significant margin) now means we are very unlikely to fight even the Soviets on an open battlefield because it is now readily apparent to our enemies that they simply can't win that way with current technology.

Not to mention that the USSR broke up several years ago.  The Challenger 2 wasn't even in service while it existed.  In any case, the west wasn't, and isn't reliant on MBTs for destroying other MBTs with.  Anti-tank helicopters and air strikes have proved very useful for that.

 
Which means we really need to figure out "asymetric warfare".  As the British did to teh Boer so must we do to others.  Rather than building pillboxes everywhere we can use our secure MBTs knowing they can't be harmed as front line maintainers providing shelter for our valuable troops.  If the platoon leader needs to call in artillery support the MBT is right there with HE capability.  If the platoon leader of a "search and capture" mission runs into a house full of nasties he can call for overwhelming backup, if a bunch of Islamists attack your cricket team then they and their vehicles can be selectively neutralised very quickly

Selectively neutralised?  Using a tank in an urban environment is going to create massive amounts of collateral damage.

You could use tanks for artillery support, yes, but what advantage do they have over dedicated artillery?
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SG

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Re: What hope Iraq?
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2009, 01:32:10 AM »

Were they worth anything though?  An angry mob is one thing, a large dedicated, professional group of people that can actually get things done is another.  As I recall, One Nation's response to economic problems was "print more money"...if they'd taken power, I wouldn't expect them to know how to use it.

She got 16% of the vote or something at her peak didn't she?

As for the loopy idea of printing money try this...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5854896.ece

Seems Pauline could be Chancellor of the UK....


Not to mention that the USSR broke up several years ago.  The Challenger 2 wasn't even in service while it existed.  In any case, the west wasn't, and isn't reliant on MBTs for destroying other MBTs with.  Anti-tank helicopters and air strikes have proved very useful for that.

Except we come back to teh point that these methods can't hang around indefinitely.  You can just park a MBT.  And the airpower does not provide any physical security for you guys.


Selectively neutralised?  Using a tank in an urban environment is going to create massive amounts of collateral damage.

Not really.

And less than airpower or artillery.

You could use tanks for artillery support, yes, but what advantage do they have over dedicated artillery?

They are on the  spot, the lieutenant communicates with tank commander and dials in 2 rounds with no time on target requirement until full fire for effect is in place because the MBT shoots direct line of sight.

SG
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