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[Pertinax]

This from "The Economist":

Iraq’s parliament lifted the immunity of a Sunni member, Muhammad al-Daini, in order to facilitate his arrest on charges of orchestrating a string of sectarian murders, including a suicide-bombing in parliament, car bombings and mortar attacks.

If democartically elected members of the new Iraqi parliament are orchestrating sectarian murders and blowing shit up, is there any hope of Iraq ever finding peace?

Did we make Iraq better of worse by deposing Saddam and his murderous regime?

[Circus Animal]

Pre-war: non-democratically elected government figures orchestrating sectarian murders and blowing shit up

Now: democratically elected government figures orchestrating sectarian murders and blowing shit up

Did we make Iraq better of worse by deposing Saddam and his murderous regime?

I guess that all comes down to whether you prefer a democratically elected government to a dictator.

[Wolfe Tone]

I guess that all comes down to whether you prefer a democratically elected government to a dictator.

If this was the logic of the US and the West in general we would have invaded three quarters of the world by now. Also the CIA and other organisations of the sort would not do political operations within democratic countries. Yet we see dictatorships everywhere some of them backed by the USA and the rest of the West including our good selves. In fact until Sadam's invasion of Kuwait, these nations were supporting Sadam. Unless people can recognise that the US and Australia and the UK work for no-one but the US and Australian and the UK, the sooner we can do something about it.

[Thaluikhain]

I remember arguing the pros and cons of the Iraq invasion a few years back...unfortunately all the "it'll all work out, not invading Iraq means you're a Nazi support" types have left the forum...

[Frazzy?]

If it made any difference, all was was to make the majority stop paying attention, because 'everything is going to be okay'
but its all the same, but with new faces...   much like the US election...

[SG]

If democartically elected members of the new Iraqi parliament are orchestrating sectarian murders and blowing shit up, is there any hope of Iraq ever finding peace?

Sinn Fein

Did we make Iraq better of worse by deposing Saddam and his murderous regime?

Yes.

Plus we showed a willingness to use force that others have taken note of eg Gadaffi.

Should be more of it.

With a much more rapid exit strategy.

Go in, clean them out, destroy their capability to make war, hold elections, leave.

It is then up to the people to do what is right.

If they piss us off then repeat process.

SG

[Pertinax]

That's what I like about you, SG, no fucking about. 

[Mez]

I was just thinking much the same.  Very direct, very dictatorial, wham bam slam.

Quite similar to his sexual technique, I'm told. 

[SG]

I was just thinking much the same.  Very direct, very dictatorial, wham bam slam.

Quite similar to his sexual technique, I'm told. 

Real men only, metros need not apply.

If you need more clues then consider the Village people:

Construction worker: yes
Policeman: yes
Indian: no
Bikie: only on Fridays
Navy guy: Definite NO

SG

[SG]

That's what I like about you, SG, no fucking about. 

Damn straight baby!

When I have an Abrams or Challenger 2 and your pathetic Soviet made crap can't damage me to teh extent that I deliberately sit tehre and let you fire at me and hit me followed by my capability resulting in 10 of your tanks becoming burning wrecks in under 2 minutes then I have acheived battlefield dominance and mental supremacy.

You will not fuck with me again without seriously thinking about it.

Only problem is that we, the West, have to accept it is our right to defend our way of life.  Including force projection into other nations that piss us off.

Hippies hate that.

So do lefties.

That is why pragmatic Right thinking individuals are regarded as essential for the survival of our way of life even by those who revile us.

I care not.  Let them say what they like.  I will die for that right.  Would they do the same or like the French intelligentsia would they write strongly worded protest papers whilst handing the Jews over to the Gauleiter?

SG

[Mez]

I would write a strongly worded (and correctly spelt and punctuated) protest paper whilst handing over the Jews and any other racial minorities I could find, if I had an Uzi aimed at my head.

But then, I'm a hippy.  Peace, man.

*raises two fingers*

[SG]

I would write a strongly worded (and correctly spelt and punctuated) protest paper whilst handing over the Jews and any other racial minorities I could find, if I had an Uzi aimed at my head.

I would die.

And I would have taken as many of them with me as I could.

SG

[SG]

whilst handing over the Jews and any other racial minorities I could find,

if I had an Uzi aimed at my head.

Amusingly, and perhaps ironically, an Uzi is an Israeli weapon.

SG

[Pertinax]

As much as I embrace the forthright nature of your approach SG, I'd probably attempt to get the other side to concede first by use of agressive diplomacy. Then, if they were unswayed in their stance, I'd unleash the armed forces and engage in a little policy realignment in the offending nation.

In the case of Iraq though, what needs to be done next? Ought we pull up stumps now and leave them to their own devices or should we attempt to get them into a more stable position before leaving?  And what would that more stable position look like? 

I think that there is little, if any, prospect that Iraq will ever be free of sectarian violence. It has been around since the schism in the Islamic faith, and quite possibly well before in the form of tribal violence, and I don't believe that it will end.  The most likely result is that Iraq will end up a Shia theocracy alongside Iran and the world will be left with one large, and more radical than we'd like, Islamic bloc controlling one third of the worlds' oil reserve.

Or will the Jews nuke them before that happens?

[SG]

As much as I embrace the forthright nature of your approach SG, I'd probably attempt to get the other side to concede first by use of aggressive diplomacy. Then, if they were unswayed in their stance, I'd unleash the armed forces and engage in a little policy realignment in the offending nation.

In the case of Iraq though, what needs to be done next? Ought we pull up stumps now and leave them to their own devices or should we attempt to get them into a more stable position before leaving?  And what would that more stable position look like? 

I think that there is little, if any, prospect that Iraq will ever be free of sectarian violence. It has been around since the schism in the Islamic faith, and quite possibly well before in the form of tribal violence, and I don't believe that it will end.  The most likely result is that Iraq will end up a Shia theocracy alongside Iran and the world will be left with one large, and more radical than we'd like, Islamic bloc controlling one third of the worlds' oil reserve.

Or will the Jews nuke them before that happens?

What should have been done is:

OK Syria, you're handing over weaponry to Iraqi insurgents.

We'll keep running democracy education programs in Iraq, in the mean time here's a few hundred Abrams tanks to deal with.

Right, now you leaders of Syria are dangling from a rope who is it that's supplying arms to the terrorists?

Iran?

OK, whilst we run democracy workshops in Iraq and Syria here's a few hundred Abrams to deal with.

Repeat ad nauseum until the leaders get the message that we won't be fucked with and that if they want to preserve their lives, let alone their positions of power, they damn well better get on board with the international peace process otherwise our might will prevail.

Ultimately if we can educate people for long enough that democracy is the way to go then democracy will take root and grow.  We just have to stop as many of the "bad guys" supplying guns to the local strong men as possible so the people have a chance.

Same problem with Vietnam - we didn't stop the inflow of weaponry from the Chinese.

Same throughout history, the political will to do what has to be done is so often lacking for fear of upsetting some dictator or another whilst at the same time the politicians are happy to order young men (predominantly) to continue to lose their lives in pursuit of global democracy which is being held up by that self same dictator.

SG