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[ßoris]

A further tragedy to the Iraq fiasco is the now trepidation of the US to extend their benevolent hand in other affairs.  At a time when our brethren are in dire need of some intervention the US is now gun shy.

Can I legitimately claim that Zimbabwe is a victim of the Iraq war?

[Mez]

You can claim it, but whether or not your claim is legitimate depends on who gets to write history.

[Lord Biscuit©]

No..
They have not invaded other countries. They have no weapons of any significance. They are more a danger to themselves than to anyone else. The best bet is to leave them alone until the entire economy and government collapse, and then integrate Zimbabwe as a state of South Africa.

If you are worried about Zimbabwe, then surely you are far more worried about Burma and many other countries with similar or worse problems?

[ßoris]

And I am.

[SG]

No..
They have not invaded other countries. They have no weapons of any significance. They are more a danger to themselves than to anyone else. The best bet is to leave them alone until the entire economy and government collapse, and then integrate Zimbabwe as a state of South Africa.

If you are worried about Zimbabwe, then surely you are far more worried about Burma and many other countries with similar or worse problems?

Well....

technically Zimbabwe is what became of Rhodesia after it was invaded by Mugabe and his ZANLU/ZIPRA freedom fighter/terrorist (delete to suit point of view) friends with Russian support.

And integration with a collapsing S Africa is only going to drag down the S Africans even more quickly (which may in itself be a good thing in the longer term) than they are managing to achieve themselves. 

Hate colonialism all you like but Africa is evidence that the "white way" is the one that delivers the best quality of life for the greatest part of the population. 

SG

[SG]

Oh, and as for oter regimes, I agree that there are many that fall short of democracy.

TNWAFPCSG still supports direct intervention in any contry that refuses to adhere to the basic tenets of democracy.  If people legitimatley choose a Mugabe then so be it, but it must be theri choice.

SG

[Lord Biscuit©]

I love irony.

I think that by the time Zimbabwe becomes a semi-autonomous state (called say, 'The Mugabe Free State') of South Africa, most surviving Zimabaweans will be living in South Africa anyway. Making it a state of Sth Africa will encourage survivors to go home. So in fact, there may be a benefit for Sth Africa in the future.

Another option that appeals to me is for Zimbabwe to become a colony of Iran. I can see many benefits to this, and it might be quite a good fit. I might suggest this to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad next time I run into him.

[Bookworm.]

Hate colonialism all you like but Africa is evidence that the "white way" is the one that delivers the best quality of life for the greatest part of the population. 

But couldn't it be said that white colonialism lead to the current problems? That they are what caused them?

[Lord Biscuit©]

But couldn't it be said that white colonialism lead to the current problems? That they are what caused them?

No.

[SG]

But couldn't it be said that white colonialism lead to the current problems? That they are what caused them?

I am the new PC SG so I won't be mean, in fact to be PC I should actually agree with you.

Equally my basic nature, looking for and believing in facts, kicks in and I have to say:

NO, OR AT LEAST, NO IF I AM BEING HONEST

SG

[Bookworm.]

Care to expand on that? (not being bitchy, just want to know why you think so)

[SG]

Care to expand on that? (not being bitchy, just want to know why you think so)

OK, what part of democratic law and order is a key driver of putting a dictator in place over and above any other traditional African system of government (monarchy mainly, some potnetial claim on theocracy)?

All that white guilt over the slave trade?

Who do you think capturd the slaves and sold them to the traders?

Other African tribes selling off their captive opponents (who old have been slaves in African society as well).

Who/What do you think liberated the slaves across the globe?

White colonialism.

How well were countries like Rhodesia and South Africa feeding even the underprivileged whilst they were white run?

Above average.

How are those countries, that had these better than average systems in place, faring since Black rule took over?

Invariably worse.

Like it or not, and it's hard to accept sometimes, but the White way is the right way in terms of giving everyone the greatest chance of having a good standard of living.

That's not to say white people are superior, just our system of government is.  Respect for the basic law, respect for authority, respect by authority of dmocratic processes, all add up to a stable and mutually beneficial society.

SG

[ßoris]

... most surviving Zimabaweans will be living in South Africa anyway.

This is what will probably make South Africa think more earnestly about Zimbabwe.  Nothing like a million refugees living in your country using up limited resources to make you act.

[Bookworm.]

OK, what part of democratic law and order is a key driver of putting a dictator in place over and above any other traditional African system of government (monarchy mainly, some potnetial claim on theocracy)?

All that white guilt over the slave trade?

Who do you think capturd the slaves and sold them to the traders?

Other African tribes selling off their captive opponents (who old have been slaves in African society as well).

Who/What do you think liberated the slaves across the globe?

White colonialism.

Ok, I get the rest of the post, not this bit.

The slave system is surely not a good example for the benefits of while colonialism.

[Lord Biscuit©]

Unfortunately, in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and elsewhere, racism is rather extreme when compared to people complain about in Australia and other western countries. In Africa, tribal conflict is very common. In some ways, colonialism help tribes to unite and to be treated equally, as the colonial ruler has no side to take. A colonial power also brings in aid, education and investment.

As a country, having a colonial ruler is not that great in terms of self-esteem, which can mean a lot to a population. However, it would seem at the moment that some kind of neutral force is required to help stabilise the country. Of course, you can't just walk into a sovereign nation uninvited unless you've declared war on them, so as usual, it will be all to late by the time the UN gets involved. A genocide will have already occurred.

We have renamed 'white slavery' to 'hands-on training'