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There should be NO scripture in schools.

20 (83.3%)

There SHOULD be scripture in schools.

4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24

[.]

Ever since becoming a teacher, I've had a real problem with "scripture". Each week, the children's learning is disrupted for half an hour while they traipse off to get a headful of godbothering from wrinkly old zealots who have nothing better to do with their days than go from school to school indoctrinating kidlets who have no say in the matter.

Why do we do it?

Well, Section 32 of the NSW Education Act (1990) states that "in every government school, time is to be allowed for the religious education of children of any religious persuasion, but the total number of hours so allowed in a year is not to exceed, for each child, the number of school weeks in the year."

So it's law. Set in stone. In a society that has always been proud of offering free, public, secular education to its constituents.

Nobody has ever really set about challenging this status quo. Most teachers don't care - it means they get half an hour where they can catch up on marking or have a coffee in the staffroom (well, at schools like mine anyway, where they haven't quite grasped the concept of "duty of care" and don't see a problem with leaving 30 kids in the care of an untrained religious instructor).

Parents don't really understand that slicing a half hour chunk out of some random section of the day is really disruptive to learning. They don't understand how hard it is to settle kids back into work after they've been running around the school to scripture class and back again. They don't understand that half hour is a huge chunk of time to have taken out of the week when we're now expected to be educating these kiddies on life skills formerly taught by parents, as well as the traditional reading/writing/'rithmetic.

My classroom houses the "non-scripture" kiddies. These are the ones whose parents have specifically objected to their child attending religious instruction. My classroom is jam-packed every week, with 40+ kids. We have a handful who attend Hindu scripture, a handful who attend Greek Orthodox, a couple of JWs and the rest are Catholics and Protestants.

The "non-scripture" kiddies usually bring "busy work" (i.e. useless crap) to do. But for teacher sanity, we've resorted to bunging on a DVD for the half hour they are in the room (40 odd kids in a demountable classroom can be extremely loud).

The kids who go to scripture dutifully colour in pictures of Jesus/Ganesha/Zeus/Whatever and get told all the wonderful stories designed to make them forever live in fear of being eaten by the godmonster and eternal guilt for any perceived sin they commit. In fact, I had one mother come and tell me that her child had been having nightmares for weeks because the scripture teacher had hammered them all about how they were going to die and bad people were going to hell yada yada.

So anyway, my point is:

I want to start a campaign to repeal this Section 32 of the NSW Education Act. I want to get rid of scripture from our schools.

I'm not saying that we disband discussion of religion altogether, however. In fact, in the HSIE (social sciences) syllabus, there is plenty of scope for comparitive analyses of religion - and I heartily encourage that to occur in schools, as a means of encouraging tolerance.

But as for this half hour devoted to brainwashing? It's got to go. Parents need to ship their kids off to Sunday School if they want to indoctrinate them with godliness.

What are your thoughts? Would you sign a petition to get this out of the public school system?

Or do you think this is a valuable addition to every child's education?

[grooviechickie]

I said no, it's got to go.

My kids used to do a bit of scripture, but they only wanted to because their friends were in scripture classes. I let them go along but the hubby and I discussed our views on organised religion with them so they knew they didn't have to believe it all and that there were alternatives.

Anyway, eventually one at a time they came to me and asked for permission to go to non scripture, and I was happy to give them a note to get out of it.

But what I wasn't happy about was that the two girls came to me and told me that non scripture at their school was held in the hall, where they were forced to sit on the floor (even in the middle of winter - remember, it snows up here ffs) and do their homework. One was complaining about how cold and grotty she was getting, and the other started to get back and neck issues from doing her homework on the floor.

I was onto the school in a flash, saying that they ought to at least have chairs and tables, and perhaps there was a warmer room they could go to. As an aside I asked if  they were being discriminated against for not having a belief in God, and pointed out that there was probably some OH&S rule about not providing this stuff for the kids. The principal feigned ignorance and the next week they were moved to a new, warm room where they got their chairs and tables.

[Ibby]

I don't agree that it should be compulsory in every school. I think it should be an issue for each school to decide if they want scripture classes or not.

[.]

I don't agree that it should be compulsory in every school. I think it should be an issue for each school to decide if they want scripture classes or not.

Even in public schools?

I reckon the scripture teachers should rock on in and teach it from 3.00-3.30...that way it's not disrupting the standard teaching program and only parents who *really* want their kids educated would be bothered with it. It should be completely separate from Department of Education stuff so that if anything happens to the kids while under the care of the scripture teacher, the school is not responsible.

[Ibby]

Yes, even in public schools.

I still think it should be available as an option. If taught in the right manner, I think it can be very useful. However, I don't think it's quite at that point yet, and scripture teachers need better training so they know how to teach religion to children in a manner that's not going to be harmful.

The scripture teachers my dad's work organises and trains get one day of training that they have to do before they're certified as being able to go in and teach in schools. I really don't think this is enough. But that's a separate argument, I think.

[Bookworm.]

I think that it should be out of public schools.

Partly because I have always seen public schools as a means of a non-religious education, and as one possible reason for sending a kid to a public school.

Also, I had always (for some reason) thought that scripture classes occured outside school time. Obviously, I am wrong. Personally, I think that, should you want them, they should be after school. Or, like Yak said, just send your kids to sunday school. Or make them sit through a church service (that should turn them off religion quick enough).


By the by, I have now heard scripture referred in a similar manner by a few different people (that it is a bunch of fuddyduddies scaring the crap out of kids with promises of eternal damnation). Is this what it is actually like? All the religious education I have receiced seems very very different in comparison.

[Adi]

All the religious education I have receiced seems very very different in comparison.

That's because our teachers all have RE qualifications and god knows what else, they just teach it as a normal class. At some religious schools, RE is a compulsory SACE unit, but not at mine, thank Buddha.

[a girlish escape or thug]

I went to a catholic primary school. Heck, I'm a practising catholic. But government schools shouldn't have the assorted scripture classes, but parents should rather send them to catechises/other religious instruction out of school hours.

And the thing is, I never quite learned anything in R.E classes anyway at catholic school. Kids tend to pick it up from what they learn from their parents or in church/temple/prayer gathering. But if parents do want to give their children that useless integrated experience, they shouldn't send them to a public school.

[Star Fish]

Not that it is in any way relevant to me personally, but I agree with yak's stance here. Particularly as it seems the "religious education" is being performed in a disruptive manner. I don't disagree with having some religious education in schools, but I think that can and should be done more as education about religions, rather than preaching. ie, explaining the belief systems of various religions, how this relates to their culture etc, not telling kids what they *should* believe.
Obviously there are differences between states and things are no doubt very different here from when I went to school - no idea if religious education is at all compulsory here now. Certainly we never had this kind of scripture class when I was at school, however, I do remember learning quite a bit about various religions and finding a lot of it quite fascinating. This was mostly just done by our regular teachers, but we did once visit a synagogue and heard about various jewish festivals from a rabbi.
I think that kind of thing should be encouraged - it is actually education, it promotes tolerance, and it gives people options if they do feel the need to adopt some kind of faith or join  a religious community I think it's good that they can see as many options as possible, not just have one rammed down their throats. (Perhaps I should add that I don't feel this need myself, but I have no problem with people who have a faith and follow it so long as they accept I don't share it).
Parents who want to bring their kids up in a particular religion should take care of that themselves. I don't get the parents who send kids to Sunday school etc but don't go to church themselves - well, except if they are just using it as a cheap child-minding exercise - but better that than expecting public schools to cater to everyone.
FWIW I did go to Sunday school (and my parents to church) but I never got the fire and brimstone stuff. Mostly it was just a social thing where we did art and craft or other activities. Sure, they usually had some relationship to some bible story, but the take home message was usually something along the lines of being good to one another, not burning in hell etc. So, to answer booky's question, not all religious education is along the lines of scaring the crap out of kids. But this is another reason I think parents should take kids to a church (or equivalent) that they attend so that they know their kids religious education is something they are comfortable with themselves.

[.]

By the by, I have now heard scripture referred in a similar manner by a few different people (that it is a bunch of fuddyduddies scaring the crap out of kids with promises of eternal damnation). Is this what it is actually like? All the religious education I have receiced seems very very different in comparison.

A lot of them are old/clueless people. But there are also some young, perky Christian mums (and dads!) who come in to try and use the "Religion is FUN!" tactic as well.

The worst was a stinky Catholic priest who used to come to my room a few years back. He was SO creepy. He spoke to the kids, and kind of looked at them with a "you're so very delicious" look in his eye. I bet he left with a few stains on his robes *shudder*.

Still, it was great when my little rebellious kid got into an argument with him one day about Jesus being a zombie because he rose from the dead 

[.]

Obviously there are differences between states and things are no doubt very different here from when I went to school - no idea if religious education is at all compulsory here now.

Yeah I want to look into that, to see if it's worthwhile drumming up interest elsewhere.

Anyone from non-NSW states/territories have little brothers or sisters in primary school who do the scripture thing?

[Thaluikhain]

I'd agree with Yak.

A question, though, how does it work?  I mean, you get a Christian preacher come in, and everyone who doesn't hold to that particular brand of Christianity leaves?  Or do you get, say, protestants being taught catholicism?

[.]

I'd agree with Yak.

A question, though, how does it work?  I mean, you get a Christian preacher come in, and everyone who doesn't hold to that particular brand of Christianity leaves?  Or do you get, say, protestants being taught catholicism?

Well I've only ever taught at "big" schools, but in those schools we have people come in from various denominations. So the Catholic kids go to the Catholic mob etc. Last year our school combined all the Anglicans/Unitings/etc under the one umbrella of "Protestant", however.

Not sure how it works in small schools though.

[Thaluikhain]

Last year our school combined all the Anglicans/Unitings/etc under the one umbrella of "Protestant", however.

Not sure how it works in small schools though.

Well, isn't someone obliged to pop in every so often and say "For the benefit of the Anglicans, what he jsut said is utter bullshit, everyone else is obliged to believe it though" or something?  How do you have different sects being taught the same religion?

I mean, shouldn't they at least pretend to take their sky fairy worship seriously?

[Phenolphthalein]

Perhaps it would work better if religion was made a subject and everyone had to learn about every religion, just like how you learn shit in other subjects that you're probably never going to use anyway.

It's good to learn about it.

I've never been to a non-religious school, so I don't know how it works, but I don't reckon that state (public) schools should impose "praise God/Allah/Buddah/Vishnu/Santa" on kids.

Teach the subject, however, I would say yes.