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[blue]

Heh, that's another thing for me. I'm too much of a control freak to not know where I am or what I'm doing 

[Keridwen]

Mkay, well, I'll start by stating that I'm a binge drinker.

Hi, a binge drinker.

Why do I do it? Well, personally, I just enjoy it. It's fun. And being a naturally introverted person who finds it hard to talk to the majority of people (although I am getting better at this) the alcohol helps me loosen up.Because all my friends do it and I'd feel like such a loser if I didn't - not to mention the placebo, thing, if I *think* I'm drunk, then I can talk to people and act silly and it's no my fault. Its liek zomg the alcohol.

I can't really think of anything that may have influenced me...

Oh, oh, pick me! Uhm... *thinks really hard* OH! Social constructs? If you don't drink you're a loos-ah?

But in year 11 that all changed when they were peer pressured into drinking and the next thing I know they're blabbering about how awesome drinking is and how much they love it, blah blah blah.

You were just a late developer. It's ok, you're probably making up for all those cliche moments now.

On a side note, isn't it interesting how kiddies have made the "peer pressure" idea into almost a divine entity unto itself? "Oh but Mum it was PEER PRESSURE." We got taught how to combat that stuff in kindergarten, c'mon people.

It wasn't until last year that I started drinking. I was reluctant at first. We had a party to go to and my friends were all excited about how they were going to get me drunk. I agreed to only have one or two, which I did, and all in all, it was a fun night.

I'm willing to bet that wasn't a controlled experiment. If you REALLY want evidence you can use, you should have gone back to the same place with the same friends and minused the alcohol, as a control. Why do people think that correlation equals causation? Just because Tom ate a cucumber and subsequently went and turned on th TV, doesn't mean he turned on the TV as a result of eating the cucumber.

Now I have a new group of close friends (I'm still close with the old friends but don't see them as much anymore)...

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

And the alcohol helps me talk to people at partie...

You THINK it makes you talk easier. PLACEBO. And if you're so proud that you can talk to random people better under the influence of a mind-altering drug... hmm.

when my friend and her boyfriend decide to have a make-out session and all my other friends are off drunk somewhere. Otherwise I'd probably just sit in a corner and judge people.

And what is wrong with sitting in corners and judging people?   Why do you assume that's the only option? Why not sit at home with a nice book and a mug of cocoa? Or perhaps spend the evening cooking a nice pasta bake? Or a nice session with Channel 10 on 8:30pm on Wednesday night? Or just like anything? Why has "fun" become synonymous with alcohol? Break out of your cages, people!

I think it's also a societal thing. We have this whole drinking culture where it's perfectly acceptable to drink beer as a casual daily thing, and the binge drinking stems from that.

Tracy Grimshaw agrees with you on that one.  

I don't think that there's any way to stop the binge drinking. Raising the legal age will do nothing, and you can't exactly make it harder to buy alcohol since most underage kids get others to legally buy it for them anyway.

Just ignore them. Once they realise no one cares, they might give up. (The underage kidlets, that is.) It'll be like the Fall of the Coolness of Emos all over again.

You know one thing I don't get? Parents who give their kids alcohol and let them drink it at home, with the mentality that they'd rather know where they are when they're drinking than have their kids feel that they have to hide it from their parents. Isn't that just encouraging alcoholism?

No, it's encouraging openness in the home. Mum says a three year old can't have a toy, three year old automatically wants toy about twenty times more. Mum says 14 year old can't have a boyfriend, 14 year old wants boyfriend twenty times more.

[blue]

And what is wrong with sitting in corners and judging people?  Why do you assume that's the only option? Why not sit at home with a nice book and a mug of cocoa? Or perhaps spend the evening cooking a nice pasta bake? Or a nice session with Channel 10 on 8:30pm on Wednesday night? Or just like anything? Why has "fun" become synonymous with alcohol? Break out of your cages, people!

I love that particular argument. Break out of your cages and go sit in front of the television, dammit! 

[Keridwen]

I love that particular argument. Break out of your cages and go sit in front of the television, dammit! 

Exactly! That's where we want to be! 

[Mr. Blonde]

Yay. I was wondering when someone would reply in the traditional fashion.

Hi, a binge drinker.

Hi, great mighty one who places self on pedestals.

Oh, oh, pick me! Uhm... *thinks really hard* OH! Social constructs? If you don't drink you're a loos-ah?

While I did like your edited version of my quote that preceded this comment of yours, I feel that you are hugely mislead. Alcohol has a placebo effect? Methinks not young Keri! I *know* when the alcohol has gone to my head. One of the signs of this is that I feel less self-concious and thus feel free to talk to whomever I please and to make as big a fool of myself as I feel necessary.
But hey, I guess we can't all be uber-charismatic, charming people who are way too cool for alcohol Keri!

And I don't think that if you don't drink then you're a "loos-ah", as you so creatively put it. I respect people who don't drink. In fact I tend to be drawn to them in my tipsy state which just adds fuel to the huge bonfire of embarrassment I have created for myself.

You were just a late developer. It's ok, you're probably making up for all those cliche moments now.

On a side note, isn't it interesting how kiddies have made the "peer pressure" idea into almost a divine entity unto itself? "Oh but Mum it was PEER PRESSURE." We got taught how to combat that stuff in kindergarten, c'mon people.

Late developer...teenager trying to hold on to her self-respect whilst everyone else drank/fucked theirs away a long time ago...yeah, it's all the same really.

You know, I could easily apply the peer pressure idea to you Keri. To many on this forum actually, even myself. So don't think that you're so exempt from the great peer pressure.

I'm willing to bet that wasn't a controlled experiment. If you REALLY want evidence you can use, you should have gone back to the same place with the same friends and minused the alcohol, as a control. Why do people think that correlation equals causation? Just because Tom ate a cucumber and subsequently went and turned on th TV, doesn't mean he turned on the TV as a result of eating the cucumber.

Oh quite right. Next time I'll be sure to make a full scientific report, interviewing key witnesses and the like.
The post-hoc, ergo propter-hoc fallacy certain can be applied here, but I know that if it weren't for the alcohol, it still would have been a relatively fun night, but I would have had to put up with friends whinging about my lack of drinking, and I wouldn't have talked to the broad variety of people as I did on that night. I know this, because, well, I am me. I've lived with myself sober for pretty much all of my life so I know what transpires in those situations where alcohol is absent.
Perhaps Tom is more inclined to watch the TV after eating a cucumber. Perhaps the cucumber reminds him of cooking shows or phallic objects that are readily available on television for cucumber-inspired viewing pleasure.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Well it was worthy enough for you to quote, therefore I suppose I accept your thanks and in return garnish you with more pointless information.
The smell of milk makes me want to vomit.
kthanx.

You THINK it makes you talk easier. PLACEBO. And if you're so proud that you can talk to random people better under the influence of a mind-altering drug... hmm.

I KNOW it makes it easier for me to talk. It's not a placebo because, uh, it actually works. I can actually feel it. It's not a substance that does nothing and makes me THINK 'oh, I'm feeling lightheaded and super talkative!'. Am I also just THINKING that it's making me feel so sick that I vomit?
Proud? Who said I was proud? I'm simply stating why I feel alcohol is a social convenience, why I like to utilise it.

And what is wrong with sitting in corners and judging people?  Why do you assume that's the only option? Why not sit at home with a nice book and a mug of cocoa? Or perhaps spend the evening cooking a nice pasta bake? Or a nice session with Channel 10 on 8:30pm on Wednesday night? Or just like anything? Why has "fun" become synonymous with alcohol? Break out of your cages, people!

Oh there's nothing wrong with sitting in corners judging people. It's just that sometimes you want a break from all of that. I'd like to be the one being judged from afar for once! 
I actually do spend the vast majority of my time sitting at home reading books, etc. Call em crazy, but I like to go out occasionally and ensure that I have a good time.
This DOES NOT always involve alcohol.
And Wednesday nights are always reserved for Channel 10 at 8:30pm. 

Tracy Grimshaw agrees with you on that one. 

What is the old girl doing now anyway? I can only assume she's become an alcoholic, so yes, I'm sure she very well does agree with me.

Just ignore them. Once they realise no one cares, they might give up. (The underage kidlets, that is.) It'll be like the Fall of the Coolness of Emos all over again.

Yeah, because everyone's an attention-seeking little teenager ala Corey whateverhisnameis.
I'm fairly sure the majority of teen drinkers don't care if no one cares. It's for their own satisfaction (for some of them self-destruction gives them said satisfaction) rather than for the praises of others (although for some that is the case).

No, it's encouraging openness in the home. Mum says a three year old can't have a toy, three year old automatically wants toy about twenty times more. Mum says 14 year old can't have a boyfriend, 14 year old wants boyfriend twenty times more.

Encouraging openness perhaps, but also alcoholism. It makes it seem ok for underage kids to drink. Wouldn't you rather them go out and try to think for themselves? To keep it under wraps because they know that it's not acceptable? Or would you rather hand them the alcohol which really wouldn't stop them binge drinking when they go out anyway. It just lets them know they can get alcohol easily from their parents.

[Keridwen]

Hmm, I'm in two minds about your reply. For starters, you overdid on the condescension. A little condescension is crucial in these sorts of things, but there's such a thing as too much of a good thing. And the overuse of language, like "I feel" and "we shall" etc etc (I know you didn't SAY I shall, but you get my meaning.)

Hi, great might one who places self on pedestals.

A pedestal? Why is the non-drinker accused of being on a pedestal all the time? We're engaging in healthy debate, here, Mr. Blonde, not preaching.

While I did like your edited version of my quote that preceded this comment of yours, I feel that you are hugely mislead. Alcohol has a placebo effect? Methinks not young Keri! (here's that condescension I was talking about.) I *know* when the alcohol has gone to my head. One of the signs of this is that I feel less self-concious and thus feel free to talk to whomever I please and to make as big a fool of myself as I feel necessary.

The people in clinical trials *know* that their headache has gone, too. Does that mean the researchers were lying about giving them a placebo??

But hey, I guess we can't all be uber-charismatic, charming people who are way too cool for alcohol Keri!

Clearly not...?

And I don't think that if you don't drink then you're a "loos-ah", as you so creatively put it.(see now that was just pointless. Why bother commenting on the WAY in which something was said? Next time, try being more concise.) I respect people who don't drink. In fact I tend to be drawn to them in my tipsy state which just adds fuel to the huge bonfire of embarrassment I have created for myself.

Huh. That's like saying: "I really like people of other cultures. All their little mannerisms are surprisingly interesting." - the connotations of course being that said person finds the other cultures primitive or inferior.

Late developer...teenager trying to hold on to her self-respect whilst everyone else drank/fucked theirs away a long time ago...yeah, it's all the same really.

That's what I'm saying - you're simply making up for lost time.

You know, I could easily apply the peer pressure idea to you Keri. To many on this forum actually, even myself. So don't think that you're so exempt from the great peer pressure.

I'd just LOVE to see you do that! Go on! (Oh, another pointer for future reference, don't say what you COULD say in an argument. If you have somethingyou think is relevant, either say it, or don't say anything about it at all. It's just frustrating and then when you don't actually do it, it seems like you're backtracking or just making it up.)

Oh quite right. Next time I'll be sure to make a full scientific report, interviewing key witnesses and the like.

Ok that's good use of sarcasm, only try substituting "the like" with other examples, make the sentence worth it. For example:

"Yes, next time I'll be sure to make a full scientific report, interviewing key witnesses, drawing up graphs and analysing the variables. Thanks for the tip."

Sounds better no?

The post-hoc, ergo propter-hoc fallacy certain can be applied here,

The WHAT?

... but I know that if it weren't for the alcohol, it still would have been a relatively fun night, but I would have had to put up with friends whinging about my lack of drinking, and I wouldn't have talked to the broad variety of people as I did on that night. I know this, because, well, I am me. I've lived with myself sober for pretty much all of my life so I know what transpires in those situations where alcohol is absent.
Perhaps Tom is more inclined to watch the TV after eating a cucumber. Perhaps the cucumber reminds him of cooking shows or phallic objects that are readily available on television for cucumber-inspired viewing pleasure.

No - you're just wrong. Correlation does NOT mean cuasation. A common factor could have made Tom do both activities, or they could be unrelated. It's unfalsifiable - you have no way of proving or knowing.

Well it was worthy enough for you to quote,

Er, yes, to point out how irrelevant it was...? I thought that was a given?

I KNOW it makes it easier for me to talk. It's not a placebo because, uh, it actually works. I can actually feel it. It's not a substance that does nothing and makes me THINK 'oh, I'm feeling lightheaded and super talkative!'. Am I also just THINKING that it's making me feel so sick that I vomit?

Of course not you twit! That is a physiological response! And yes I agree that alcohol itself does diminish inhibitions, but it all too often proves to be more of a placebo in this respect. Surely that's obvious? And you should be pointing out here that who cares? My argument is, while valid, not really relevant to the argument. You could say: "So? Even if it is a placebo, it still has that effect on me, thus my point still stands." - and then I'd be forced to concede that you are right.

 

And Wednesday nights are always reserved for Channel 10 at 8:30pm. 

As it should be.

What is the old girl doing now anyway? I can only assume she's become an alcoholic, so yes, I'm sure she very well does agree with me.

Too juvenile. I didn't like this at all.

Yeah, because everyone's an attention-seeking little teenager ala Corey whateverhisnameis.
I'm fairly sure the majority of teen drinkers don't care if no one cares. It's for their own satisfaction (for some of them self-destruction gives them said satisfaction) rather than for the praises of others (although for some that is the case).

HA! Show me a shitty teenager who isn't out for attention in whatever respect? "ZOMG I got so TRASHED on the weekend." They ALL do it! FX, didn't you say you go to a school where this is all they talk about? Back me up here!

Encouraging openness perhaps, but also alcoholism. It makes it seem ok for underage kids to drink. Wouldn't you rather them go out and try to think for themselves? To keep it under wraps because they know that it's not acceptable? Or would you rather hand them the alcohol which really wouldn't stop them binge drinking when they go out anyway. It just lets them know they can get alcohol easily from their parents.

It does not encourage alcoholism ffs. No, I would not rather them go out and try it for themselves for the first time, one because it's ILLEGAL and two because they have no experience with it. Kiddies who've never drank ebfore going out with kiddies who HAVE are at a distinct disadvantage safety wise. They don't know their limits. Think about what you're saying.

[Pinball Neil]

Hmm, I'm in two minds about your reply. For starters, you overdid on the condescension. A little condescension is crucial in these sorts of things, but there's such a thing as too much of a good thing. And the overuse of language, like "I feel" and "we shall" etc etc (I know you didn't SAY I shall, but you get my meaning.)

A pedestal? Why is the non-drinker accused of being on a pedestal all the time? We're engaging in healthy debate, here, Mr. Blonde, not preaching.

The people in clinical trials *know* that their headache has gone, too. Does that mean the researchers were lying about giving them a placebo??

Clearly not...?

Huh. That's like saying: "I really like people of other cultures. All their little mannerisms are surprisingly interesting." - the connotations of course being that said person finds the other cultures primitive or inferior.

That's what I'm saying - you're simply making up for lost time.

I'd just LOVE to see you do that! Go on! (Oh, another pointer for future reference, don't say what you COULD say in an argument. If you have somethingyou think is relevant, either say it, or don't say anything about it at all. It's just frustrating and then when you don't actually do it, it seems like you're backtracking or just making it up.)

Ok that's good use of sarcasm, only try substituting "the like" with other examples, make the sentence worth it. For example:

"Yes, next time I'll be sure to make a full scientific report, interviewing key witnesses, drawing up graphs and analysing the variables. Thanks for the tip."

Sounds better no?

The WHAT?


No - you're just wrong. Correlation does NOT mean cuasation. A common factor could have made Tom do both activities, or they could be unrelated. It's unfalsifiable - you have no way of proving or knowing.

Er, yes, to point out how irrelevant it was...? I thought that was a given?

Of course not you twit! That is a physiological response! And yes I agree that alcohol itself does diminish inhibitions, but it all too often proves to be more of a placebo in this respect. Surely that's obvious? And you should be pointing out here that who cares? My argument is, while valid, not really relevant to the argument. You could say: "So? Even if it is a placebo, it still has that effect on me, thus my point still stands." - and then I'd be forced to concede that you are right.

 
As it should be.

Too juvenile. I didn't like this at all.

HA! Show me a shitty teenager who isn't out for attention in whatever respect? "ZOMG I got so TRASHED on the weekend." They ALL do it! FX, didn't you say you go to a school where this is all they talk about? Back me up here!

It does not encourage alcoholism ffs. No, I would not rather them go out and try it for themselves for the first time, one because it's ILLEGAL and two because they have no experience with it. Kiddies who've never drank ebfore going out with kiddies who HAVE are at a distinct disadvantage safety wise. They don't know their limits. Think about what you're saying.

Latest gripe of the wowser brigade imho

[Phenolphthalein]

Blah blah blah.

If it's fun, do it.

[Thaluikhain]

If it's fun, do it.

Come over here, and bring a tub of yoghurt and some rubber chickens...

[Mr. Blonde]

Hmm, I'm in two minds about your reply. For starters, you overdid on the condescension. A little condescension is crucial in these sorts of things, but there's such a thing as too much of a good thing. And the overuse of language, like "I feel" and "we shall" etc etc (I know you didn't SAY I shall, but you get my meaning.)

Oh, I over did the condescension did I? That's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever did see it.
And thanks for the English lesson. But this isn't an essay, not everything has to be a cold and emotionless point. But if you'd like me to make my posts a little less open to the opinions of others, much like your own, then I can do that just as easily.

Let's make this simple. I'll just pick out your worthwhile points and discuss them (the ones where you don't repeat yourself or tell me I'm wrong even if I've agreed with you).

A pedestal? Why is the non-drinker accused of being on a pedestal all the time? We're engaging in healthy debate, here, Mr. Blonde, not preaching.

No, you're not on a pedestal because you're a non-drinker. As I said in my post (in a point which you conveniently manipulated), I respect non-drinkers. I don't care whether you drink or not. I've made my choice because I enjoy it - it's as shallow as that. No deeper meaning.
I believe that you sit upon a pedestal because, frankly, many of the posts you make of this nature tend you see you looking down upon anyone who argues with you. You seem to want to earn the respect of certain people here by being firm-set in your points, by arguing successfully (or what you make out to be successfully) with anyone who will have a piece of it. Your arguments would be a lot more interesting if you cared to indulge in, just for one second, the arguments of others rather than merely coutnering them, or manipulating them to fit your own argument. Or as I previously wrote, by telling others they're wrong even after they've agreed with you.
I tell you this because I do find some of your arguments interesting, but it gets to a stage where it's just pointless because you allow no room for logic and reason. You're right and that's the end of it.

I'd just LOVE to see you do that! Go on! (Oh, another pointer for future reference, don't say what you COULD say in an argument. If you have somethingyou think is relevant, either say it, or don't say anything about it at all. It's just frustrating and then when you don't actually do it, it seems like you're backtracking or just making it up.)

OK, the rest of my argument just got deleted, so let me try this again, albeit much more breifly.  

I CAN and I WILL do that.
How Keri gave into peer pressure: Keri joined forum as fairly fangirly fangirl. Keri was exposed to snarky posts of older members. Keri decides to make equally snarky posts in order to fit in and impress so-called "elite" members.
And you, too, have expressed this change in some post somewhere. It's not exactly direct peer pressure where it's been demanded of you to post said posts, but you've certainly felt that it was needed to fit in around here.

Of course not you twit! That is a physiological response! And yes I agree that alcohol itself does diminish inhibitions, but it all too often proves to be more of a placebo in this respect. Surely that's obvious? And you should be pointing out here that who cares? My argument is, while valid, not really relevant to the argument. You could say: "So? Even if it is a placebo, it still has that effect on me, thus my point still stands." - and then I'd be forced to concede that you are right.

Twit...hmm. One could see that as juvenile and overly condescending. But of course if you do it it's perfectly ok. Whether I'm a twit or not.

And, ah, no thanks on the argument advice. If you want to dictate the argument in such a way, or to argue with people who think the way you want them to, then this is altogether pointless.

It does not encourage alcoholism ffs. No, I would not rather them go out and try it for themselves for the first time, one because it's ILLEGAL and two because they have no experience with it. Kiddies who've never drank ebfore going out with kiddies who HAVE are at a distinct disadvantage safety wise. They don't know their limits. Think about what you're saying.

Yeah ok. I respect your point. Let's leave it at that.

[pseudonym]

Binge drinking is bad, kids.  Trust me - today I have a hangover that makes me want to cry. 

Question:  Are we discussing binge drinking in terms of having more than 5 drinks in any one session?  Or is the discussion about getting dangerously falling-down drunk?

If it's the former, I have to admit that I usually binge drink when I go out, and I go out quite a bit.  I don't see it as a good thing.  But (aside from the obvious health risks), I don't see it as a particularly bad thing either.  And I suspect that has a lot to do with the fact that socially, that kind of binge drinking isn't just accepted, it's almost expected.  To drink a bottle of wine with dinner is considered fairly normal, and most bottles are between 7 and 8 standard drinks.  Four schooners of beer is 6 standard drinks, and I don't know many blokes who'd frown on their mate for having four beers.

If it's the latter, I occasionally let myself get to that point.  But even that is considered an acceptable end to an evening.  So long as some basic rules of public behaviour are conformed to (don't: fall over too much, throw up in public, start to cry, pick a fight, or act like an arse) there's not really any kind of social backlash for getting smashed.  In fact, so long as you were reasonably behaved, there's actually a weird kudos to be gained.

I'm not advocating binge drinking by any means.  But I believe that the underage binge drinking thing is deeply rooted in a culture which doesn't just allow, but encourages, heavy drinking.  Raising the drinking age, getting rid of lolly drinks, cracking down on licensees... these things won't help, unless the social attitude toward drinking is addressed.

[Keridwen]

Oh, I over did the condescension did I? That's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever did see it.

See now this is what I'm talking about. "If ever I did see it"?  I don't think my arguments so far have been condescending overmuch - just the little that's necessary. Yours have been "dear young Keri" (I'm pretty sure we're the same age, by the by) and such.

And thanks for the English lesson. But this isn't an essay, not everything has to be a cold and emotionless point.

  I had so much fun reading your reply to this. Darn those cold and emotionless points in an argument which doesn't actually involve much emotion! Shoot them where they stand!

But if you'd like me to make my posts a little less open to the opinions of others, much like your own, then I can do that just as easily.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'less open to the opinions of others' ?

Let's make this simple. I'll just pick out your worthwhile points and discuss them (the ones where you don't repeat yourself or tell me I'm wrong even if I've agreed with you).

Gosh, getting a bit personal here, aren't we? I'll deal with the personal nature (or lack thereof) of arguments a little later on, but honestly...

No, you're not on a pedestal because you're a non-drinker. As I said in my post (in a point which you conveniently manipulated),

[

That being the POINT of arguments, yes.

 

I believe that you sit upon a pedestal because, frankly, many of the posts you make of this nature tend you see you looking down upon anyone who argues with you.

Ah, but of course! It is I who should be schooled in argument, it seems. For if I'm hearing you correctly, it seems as though you're saying we should argue as follows:

Me: Hai thur.
You: Hai.
Me: I don't drink.
You: I drink, it's fun.
Me: I respect that.
You: I respect your respect and also your non drinkingness.
Me: Isn't that just great?
Us: *hugz*

Excuse me while I throw up. Arguments are JUST THAT - arguments. I went through lower high school as a member of the debating team, and a good portion of primary school too. You know what the fundamental key point in debating is? Argue your point into the dust. EVEN if you don't agree with it. If you get the topic "smoking is good" you have to be prepared to run with that. And I agree with this philosophy - I mean, if I'm playing complete wowser and you're playing dopey teenager (even though we are not these things) then we get more out of the debate. (But I'm sure you will take this far too literally and get uppity because I called you a dopey teenager, which I didn't. Que sera sera.)

You seem to want to earn the respect of certain people here by being firm-set in your points,

 

Hey guyz look at me I'm "firm set in my points". Tell me, since when was being "firm set in your points" (whatever that means) just a pathetic attempt to garner respect? To all intensive purposes, I'm "firm set in my points because I stick by them to see where the argument finishes up. Funny that!

...by arguing successfully (or what you make out to be successfully) with anyone who will have a piece of it. Your arguments would be a lot more interesting if you cared to indulge in, just for one second, the arguments of others rather than merely coutnering them, or manipulating them to fit your own argument.

  Ok so I'm not allowed to manipulate or counter them, but I'm supposed to "interact" with them. In the wise words of Socrates: "That's like asking the definition of twelve and saying 'But I don't want answers like twice six or four times three or any nonsense like that.'" Think about what you're saying!

Or as I previously wrote, by telling others they're wrong even after they've agreed with you.
I tell you this because I do find some of your arguments interesting, but it gets to a stage where it's just pointless because you allow no room for logic and reason.

I allow no room for reason? Well that's just wrong, I agree, but it's wrong. I like cheese. God rocks?

You're right and that's the end of it.

If that was so I wouldn't be arguing with you, duh?

How Keri gave into peer pressure: Keri joined forum as fairly fangirly fangirl. Keri was exposed to snarky posts of older members. Keri decides to make equally snarky posts in order to fit in and impress so-called "elite" members.

Oh THAT'S original. Have you considered that this perceived change has something to do with the fact that I was like 16 when I joined up and am now 18? Perhaps? Is it possible that people, oh, I don't know, mature a little in those years? ALSO - that is not "peer pressure". Peer pressure is something that convinces people to do something that they wouldn't normally do, or that they don't want to do. If I looked at people and went "wow. People can be intelligent on the internets. Maybe I should try it," - that's not "peer pressure". It's barely even conforming - if I wanted to "fit in" I'd have started spamming SUOPC or... hmm... agreed that alcohol is teh funness? People who want to fit in have a desire to think like everyone else. Therefore if your conclusion was correct, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Counter THAT!

Yeah ok. I respect your point. Let's leave it at that.

Pansy. This is why I argue with such fervour, because no one ever wants to engage in a good argument!The only way to have a good one is by saying outrageous things and sticking by them in the hope that someone will say "hang on a minute, this kid's a fucking moron" and start arguing! Even if I don't think you're a twit (which I don't - it's just a literary device ) I'll say it anyway just to fire you up.

On a side note, why is it that people take arguments so personally? Bookworm can be testament to the fact that you don't have to. She and I have argued over one of the most personal things in the world - faith - and we don't like hate each other or anything. It's all intellect, nothing about liking people or respecting people (at the offset). You may not like my methods (can't imagine why, you dolt  ) but you have to admit it's incited you to arguing about something completely stupid thus far.

I look forward to next time. 

[Mr. Blonde]

  </end apparently obligatory smileys>

Excuse me while I throw up. Arguments are JUST THAT - arguments. I went through lower high school as a member of the debating team, and a good portion of primary school too. You know what the fundamental key point in debating is? Argue your point into the dust. EVEN if you don't agree with it. If you get the topic "smoking is good" you have to be prepared to run with that. And I agree with this philosophy - I mean, if I'm playing complete wowser and you're playing dopey teenager (even though we are not these things) then we get more out of the debate. (But I'm sure you will take this far too literally and get uppity because I called you a dopey teenager, which I didn't. Que sera sera.)

I like a good argument just as much as the next person, but at times I just get sick of it because it seems as if nothing gets through. What is the point of an argument, exactly? Is it merely a chance to get all high-and-mighty? A battle of wits? An opportunity to get fired up and go on a gigantic spiel relating to your opinions? I guess all of those things do come in to it, but I always thought that the most important part of a (to some extent) civilised and intellectual argument was the sharing of ideas in an intelligent way. You end up better for it because you get to experience the viewpoint of someone else whilst arguing your own point of view and realising exactly where you stand on whatever issue it may be.
You say you were a member of the debating team. Debating team members are taught to argue their point fluently and succinctly. They aren't supposed to allow any room for the arguments of the other team. But this is not a high school debate - we're trying to have a discussion here. When you're constantly trying to turn anything and everything your fellow arguers say against them, it all just feels a little pointless. It is then not so much a discussion as you telling them they're wrong, they then try to explain a little more or perhaps agree with you on some points, yet you still wont have a word of it.

But I guess everyone has different ways they like to argue.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'less open to the opinions of others' ?

Well there you go.

Ok so I'm not allowed to manipulate or counter them, but I'm supposed to "interact" with them. In the wise words of Socrates: "That's like asking the definition of twelve and saying 'But I don't want answers like twice six or four times three or any nonsense like that.'" Think about what you're saying!

No, manipulating and countering is fine, just not when done to death, over and over again, on every single point. Even ones where you've been agreed with.

Oh THAT'S original. Have you considered that this perceived change has something to do with the fact that I was like 16 when I joined up and am now 18? Perhaps? Is it possible that people, oh, I don't know, mature a little in those years? ALSO - that is not "peer pressure". Peer pressure is something that convinces people to do something that they wouldn't normally do, or that they don't want to do. If I looked at people and went "wow. People can be intelligent on the internets. Maybe I should try it," - that's not "peer pressure". It's barely even conforming - if I wanted to "fit in" I'd have started spamming SUOPC or... hmm... agreed that alcohol is teh funness? People who want to fit in have a desire to think like everyone else. Therefore if your conclusion was correct, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Counter THAT!

Yes, I'm positive it did have something to do with the fact that you've matured. But peer pressure is not only being convinced to do something you wouldn't normally do - it's any sort of pressure from the people you surround yourself with, whether that be direct or indirect. If your peers act a certain way, then it's more than likely that you'll be inclined to act that way too, unless of course you're repulsed by them and realise that you don't want to associate with any of them. But that's isn't the case in this situation.

And it seems that you're implying that I "agreed" that alcohol was fun just to fit in. I see. So you're the eccentric, unique one because you're a non-drinker and all of us who have admitted to drinking are just following the crowd?
I was just stating my viewpoint. I'm just as entitled to enjoy drinking as you are entitled to not drink. And that's fine. No one is wrong here, we can't exactly prove each other wrong on this point - it's a matter of opinion that can be openly discussed, but not an debate to be won after everyone's said their little part.

On a side note, why is it that people take arguments so personally? Bookworm can be testament to the fact that you don't have to. She and I have argued over one of the most personal things in the world - faith - and we don't like hate each other or anything. It's all intellect, nothing about liking people or respecting people (at the offset). You may not like my methods (can't imagine why, you dolt  ) but you have to admit it's incited you to arguing about something completely stupid thus far.

Er, I didn't take the actual argument personally, you twat (literary device, of course). I just had some things I needed to get off my chest. I hope you've at least considered what I've said. You're interesting to argue with Keri but sometimes I just feel like you're a little too one-sided. But it's up to you whether you take that on or not. 
Also, respect should come into an argument at some point. If you don't respect someone's ideas, then why even bother arguing with them?

Yes. Bring on the good, healthy discussions/arguments.

[pseudonym]

Meh - I have to agree with Mr Blonde on the whole condescention thing.  Keri's posts are a little patronising and rude.    Often entertaining, but patronising nonetheless.

[Phenolphthalein]

tl;dr.

So while we're on the topic of drinking, what's something that's not vodka or champagne that you can drink in large quantities?

Keeping in mind that by large quantities, I mean approximately 3 champagne glasses worth of alcohol.