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Author Topic: Economics for Dummies  (Read 3154 times)

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Economics for Dummies
« on: February 19, 2008, 11:52:01 AM »

OK. I'm pretty smart about lots of things, but there are two areas I admit defeat in - economics and cars.

I want someone to explain to me in reaaaally simple terms, how economics works.

I always thought it was based a bit on supply and demand. But obviously it's more complex than this.

I want to know how, at the one time, we can have:

- a strong economy (apparently) and budget surpluses
- high interest rates
- the cost of stuff being really high and getting higher, to the point where wages aren't keeping up

Why are we, the little people, hit with high interest rates on our homes and high petrol prices and high food prices, without receiving an equal increase in wages...

...while business execs are on ridiculous levels of pay: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-whole-parliament-gets-paid-the-same-as-one-executive/2008/02/17/1203190653956.html

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Mr. Blonde

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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2008, 12:41:59 PM »

Ask me in three years when I've finished my degree and I'll (hopefully) be able to give you an outstanding answer.

But at the moment, I feel I have some general idea of how the economy works, but not enough information to be able to fully explain it all properly.

But generally, high employment figures (like the ones we're currently seeing) cause inflation, which leads to the cost of things being higher due to a greater amount of money circulating which exceeds the supply of good, since employed people generally have more to spend.
This decreases the purchasing power of money.
Now, theoretically, if wages were increased in unison with the increasing cost of living, then this would effectively cancel out the decrease in the purchasing power of money. But that's not possible - too much money would be circulating, and things would most likely end up costing even more as supply dwindles and money loses even more of its purchasing power.
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Lord Biscuit©

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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2008, 12:46:33 PM »

While businesses here may be doing well, good exports etc, the banks, and hence anyone borrowing from the banks are in the shit because banks invest overseas where sometimes things go belly up. When it is of the scale of the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the USA, it tends to affect an awful lot of people.

When Enron went belly up a few years ago, it cost companies who trade with the US millions of dollars, because the US govt bought in an accounting regime (SOX) that had to be adhered to by anyone trading in/with the US. You have to take the bad with the good.

Macquarie bank are very good at making money. The 33 million dollar salaries reflect just how well they do. They pay their shareholders, and then themselves, and there's still plenty left for further investment. They are not particularly beholden to anyone as far as what they pay themselves. Just a matter of ethics.

And cars? What's the problem there? You put petrol in, and it goes. If it stops going, you take it to the garage. Pretty simple really.
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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2008, 12:49:17 PM »

So then the Libs introducing Workchoices and the subsequent spike in employment levels that they attributed to this was a bad thing?

Why do governments wank on about having great unemployment figures if it does this to the economy?

I don't understand how "things" can't be produced to meet fluctuating demand so that inflation doesn't happen.

So, in periods of high employment, manufacturers/farmers produce more. In periods of  low employment they produce less.

It sounds like a pretty fucked system to me.

Why can't we go back to bartering?  8-)
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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 12:53:10 PM »

Why do we need banks?

Is it possible to go back to a society without banks?
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berny

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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2008, 01:04:33 PM »

Bartering is the best system in theory - in my opinion - but kind of hard in a service-based economy, in practical terms. What if you rent or sell fruit or live in a cardboard box and don't need my services as an architect? Do I go hungry until I find someone who needs me, who I need too?  :cry: Besides, its too hard for govs to collect taxes when theyre not in a tangible form - is much easier to skim some cash off the bank account than have a uteload of ATO officers driving around picking up chairs, apples and light bulbs to sell trade, although that would be entertaining to watch  :roll:
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 01:47:22 PM by berny »
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Pinball Neil

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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2008, 01:07:29 PM »

Yeah bartering would work well...  :roll:

Damn health insurance always costs me an arm and an leg.
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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2008, 01:14:46 PM »

When Enron went belly up a few years ago, it cost companies who trade with the US millions of dollars, because the US govt bought in an accounting regime (SOX) that had to be adhered to by anyone trading in/with the US. You have to take the bad with the good.

The Sarbanes-Oxley Act was being developed for quite some time before Enron and Worldcom went bust.  It was just accelerated as a result.  It shouldn't cost a company millions though.  At the beginning, there were a lot of companies were paranoid about the new reporting requirements, and so hired teams people who went overboard and documented every single process and control in the entire business, rather than just the key controls, which are required.

Why do we need banks?

Is it possible to go back to a society without banks?

A world where we dealt in cash and ONLY in cash, and had our entire savings stuffed into a matress?  Not possible, and certainly not safe.  Banks, and the banking networks, allow the safe storage of, and fast and secure transfer of money.  The idea is good.  But they are greedy, greedy, nasty, evil fuckers who charge like a wounded bull at every turn.  They charge me for borrowing my money to invest.  They charge me if someone else writes me a dodgy cheque.  They charge me if I overdraw.  They charge me if I need to use an ATM.  Or a teller.  Or an EFTPOS terminal.  Or transact in any way at all.  I closed my NAB account when they started charging for phone banking transactions.
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Lord Biscuit©

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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2008, 01:57:43 PM »

The Sarbanes-Oxley Act was being developed for quite some time before Enron and Worldcom went bust.  It was just accelerated as a result.  It shouldn't cost a company millions though.  At the beginning, there were a lot of companies were paranoid about the new reporting requirements, and so hired teams people who went overboard and documented every single process and control in the entire business, rather than just the key controls, which are required.
It wasn't forced on everyone. I dealt with a Japanese company that had to spend at least $4million changing/updating their accounting systems because they deal with the US a lot (as do most global companies). The ongoing cost is also quite high.

"The Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 (Pub.L. 107-204, 116 Stat. 745, enacted 2002-07-30), also known as the Public Company Accounting Reform and Investor Protection Act of 2002 and commonly called SOx or Sarbox; is a United States federal law enacted on July 30, 2002 in response to a number of major corporate and accounting scandals including those affecting Enron, Tyco International, Adelphia, Peregrine Systems and WorldCom."
...so no, it didn't exist in any significant form before Enron etc.

A world where we dealt in cash and ONLY in cash, and had our entire savings stuffed into a matress?  Not possible, and certainly not safe.  Banks, and the banking networks, allow the safe storage of, and fast and secure transfer of money.  The idea is good.  But they are greedy, greedy, nasty, evil fuckers who charge like a wounded bull at every turn.  They charge me for borrowing my money to invest.  They charge me if someone else writes me a dodgy cheque.  They charge me if I overdraw.  They charge me if I need to use an ATM.  Or a teller.  Or an EFTPOS terminal.  Or transact in any way at all.  I closed my NAB account when they started charging for phone banking transactions.
It seems NAB have been trying to discourage non-business customer through their high fees.
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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2008, 02:09:39 PM »

The other thing I want to know is...

The Reserve Bank.

Public organisation, yes? Who hires and fires the head honchos of this organisation? How do they go about setting interest rates?

Solely from my media portrait of this group I get this impression that it's like some secret society like Masons or something. These serious-looking, seriously-suited, old white men enter these vast buildings with ominous looks on their heads and return with almost a sadistic glee as they announce interest rate rises.

What I'm interested in is how open to corruption this organisation is.

For my thinking, it seems very sus that there were the odd rate rises under Liberal but as soon as Labor gets in there's 'bam, bam, bam' - interest rate rises galore.

I can't imagine that Labor's ascension to power has caused this. But it would be easy to link the two together. I dunno...is it possible for big business to somehow 'coerce' this into happening as a fuck-you to a big-business-unfriendly Labor government?
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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2008, 02:19:35 PM »

It's all there somewhere:
http://www.rba.gov.au/


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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2008, 04:18:16 PM »

I don't know much about economics either, Yak (but then, I'm not as smart as most).

What do you want to know about cars?
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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2008, 05:40:52 PM »

What do you want to know about cars?

I have a brother who's a mechanic, so nothing :D I just have to make sure he stays alive and put up with his racist bullshit :|
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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2008, 09:32:12 PM »

I want to know how, at the one time, we can have:

- a strong economy (apparently) and budget surpluses
- high interest rates
- the cost of stuff being really high and getting higher, to the point where wages aren't keeping up

Strong economy and budget surpluses is a combination of several factors.

Strong economy is due to a huge growth rate in terms of productivity, that is, as we move more toward a service economy each and every one of us is producing more of value than ever before.  In short, the economy is growing because more paid outcomes are occurring.

This drives a higher level of transactions and revenue and ultimately taxation that goes to teh government.  Combine that with teh GST which covers pretty much every retail financial transaction and all of a sudden there are less opportunities for the "black economy" (cash economy if you prefer) to take place.  Whilst I doubt that all the transactions in your local food hall make it on to the books and pay GST other businesses don't have the same opportunity to avoid this tax (the taxman jailed a clothes business ownerfor tax evasion revealed by sudden changes in declared income as a result of GST reorting) the GST brought in an extra $4 billion or so that wasn't expected.

Having put a concerted effort to pay off an inherited $91billion of debt that in turn freed up about $9billion a year in interest payments which makes a huge difference.  Imagine a household with the credit card interest eating up 10% of your total income versus the same household with that extra 10% available.

That gives a very strong economy with huge surpluses.

Now we get to point 3 (point 2 comes later).  As we each do more and more productive work (i.e. increasing supply) we get nerer and nearer our theoretical maximum efficiency and we no longer deliver increased productivity, i.e. our output is still high but no longer improving at the same rate.  In order to improve that rate and boost supply additional capital must be spent, additional labour must be found etc.

We have now reached a point where the economy is heavily constrained by the unavailability of labour (equally there is now NO reason for people to receive unemployment benefits for more than 6 months) and also the lack of infrastructure to readily increase supply even if extra labour becomes available.  So we are becoming supply constrained.  At the very same time we are also, because we are becoming more productive, earning more and thus buying more and increasing demand.

Which brings us back to your basic supply v demand statement and how it is getting out of kilter.

Now, we have known about this for some time.  But as we have all been having a field day soaking up the extra capacity in the economy and we have all been getting better off we haven't really worried too much about it.  Problem is neither have our politicians.  Federally JHo and crew established the conditions for growth, for labour flexibility to deliver maximum productivity and maximum reward and having paid off all debt they have pumped a shedload of money back into the economy via Federal programs but more significantly by giving the States more money then they have ever had.  And the States, faced with the GST windfall PLUS the huge mountain of property transaction taxes comepletely blew it.  Money has been wasted everywhere, a once in a generation opportunity to really fix infrastructure isses (primarily a state based issue as it is a matter of geography) has been lost and, as much as you will disagree with me, public service cost blowouts are scandalous.

Peace has been bought with various public service unions, this imposes an ongoing cost on the public forever (salaries rarely go backwards) with no real additional productive output.  But it does create extra spending power.

So, all that extra money in the hands of employees builds demand.

For a fair period of time that demand was sated by imports, and the Chinese helped us out enormously by producing goods at a much lower price than we could so for a long time the extra demand was hidden by the huge and cheap Chinese supply.  Sure some things went up, but so many manufactured goods went down that inflation figures were supposedly under control when in fact they were not - super cheap China kept us looking good with no need to cool the economy.

Problem is, we're now buying so much and the goods from China are no longer getting cheaper that increases are hitting the inflation numkbers and the RBA needs to cool the economy.  Bear in mind that this is a direct result of the RBA NOT taking acion earlier becasue the overall rate was below their 3% target whereas inflation was really higher than that, it was just temporarily offset by the China effect.  And how does the RBA cool the economy to reduce that demand?  They need to take money off the "average" Australian so the "average" demand decreases.  They do this by increasing interest rates and sucking some money (and thus demand) out of the system.

Problem is it's a very blunt instrument (as many others havesaid elsewhere) that only targets people with borrowings, currently that's about 46% of the country.  So if you're in the 54% you can continue to spend like mad whilst the RBA makes the 46% pay for your sins.

Feeling good yet?  It gets better.

Who makes up that 54%?  Generally older people who have had the chance to pay off their mortgage, very few young people own a house outright.  Very few young people have teh accumulated wealth of an older person - certainly on AVERAGE your wealth increases with age.  So not only are the RBA hitting the 46% who havemortgages, that 46% are generally the lesser net worth individuals so the RBA effectively has to hit them more than twice as hard as they would have to hit the entire population in order to have the same effect.  Higher interest rates help higher net wealth people as it increases their COMPARATIVE spending power simply beacuse they aren't repaying as much on the mortgage.

And for the final kicker:  imagine youare a young person wanting to buy a house.  You want a mortgage, you want to start building wealth for the future but becasue the RBA is increasing rates you either can't afford to get in or you can't borrow as much so you settle for a lesser house.

All in all, booming economies lead to booming demand which can only be met for a period of time after which demand must be reduced and the only mechanism available for that currently is to increase interest rates.

Imagine if the GST was variable and the RBA could control inflation like that - everyone who buys stuff pays equally, the money is sucked out of the system twice as quick as hitting 46% of the population, and if you choose not to purchase the goods at the higher price (as a result of higher GST) then you're also taking demand out of the economy.



Why are we, the little people, hit with high interest rates on our homes and high petrol prices and high food prices, without receiving an equal increase in wages...

An equal increase in wages simply fuels more inflation and has no net effect, that's the whole reason for increasing rates above wage increases.


...while business execs are on ridiculous levels of pay: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/a-whole-parliament-gets-paid-the-same-as-one-executive/2008/02/17/1203190653956.html

When you're a wealth generator for people like Moss or Dixon or King then people are generally happy to pay you $10 million or so if you are generating $200 million for them (collectively).

SG
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SG

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Re: Economics for Dummies
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2008, 09:47:32 PM »

So then the Libs introducing Workchoices and the subsequent spike in employment levels that they attributed to this was a bad thing?

Well, depends on your point of view.

If you're one of the unemployed who can't afford anything you may disagree that a higher unemployment rate is good in order that those who are employed don't feel the effects of 4% inflation.

People generally want a higher standard of living.

They get that by working.

That in turn drives productivity

Which in turn increases supply

And on we go.

Why do governments wank on about having great unemployment figures if it does this to the economy?

See above, most people want more than a base level of income.

Creating teh conditions for that to occur is a good thing, balancing it against causing inflationary pressure is trickier.

I don't understand how "things" can't be produced to meet fluctuating demand so that inflation doesn't happen.

Lead times for extra machinery starts at about 6 months.  For big stuff you're planning several years ahead.

You can't always just turn extra production on to meet the demand.  Refer to my earlier post, as productiviy increases that is exactly what you ar doing, you are soaking up the initial excess capacity that is available.  No problem.  When demnad gets to the state that there is no more readily available capacity then extra supply must be built, and that is hard.  There must be the belief that a return on investment will be made, there must be the willingness to spend that money and that the extra capacity will not lower prices to the extent that the return is not made (diamonds are a classic example).

As an example I have worked in the poultry industry.  Pretty easy you would think, grow a few chooks, kill them cut them and supply them.  After all, a chook is 10 weeks old when it's slaughtered which means a 10 week lead time on increasing output right?

Wrong.

That chook has to come from an egg. 

And those eggs need to come from chooks who can lay one a day or so.  So you have to increase the supply of layer chooks.  Which means you need to build the supply of chooks who lay the eggs fthat hatch the layers and so on.

In short, it take 18 MONTHS to significantly increase the output of chicken meat at the endof the process in a sustainable manner (short term gains can be made by slaughtering layer chooks but that very quickly leads to the situation where you have nothing left to keep the process running).

To build and commission a factory takes 24 months plus. 

And demand doesn't wait 24 months, it is DEMAND NOW.

And even worse, when there isn't enough labour left to create additional supply you have a huge problem.  18 months let you brred extra chooks, how do you breed extra people in a hurry?  Immigration - sure.  Problem there is that skilled workers are a product largely of western society and education, and those people are already in demand in their own country.  Unskilled labour is relatively easy to come by, but who wants to import unskilled people when you stil have some of your own unemployed?


So, in periods of high employment, manufacturers/farmers produce more. In periods of  low employment they produce less.

If only it was that easy.

It sounds like a pretty fucked system to me.

Possibly true, but it's the best we have.

Why can't we go back to bartering?  8-)

You can.

Provided you like to live in villages and be codependant on everyone else.

And what if they don't value your teaching skills?  How will you then eat?

BArtering is a truly fucked system, a common means of exchange (i.e. money) simplifies the system immensely.

SG
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