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[.]

this was kinda spawned by the 'divorce and children' topic but it's a bit different, so i made a new thread.

my brother's girlfriend's sister announced to everyone the other day that she's leaving her husband. why? she "is sick of being a mum". yes, it's a lovely realisation to come to after you've spat out three children.

this is a woman who has been going out with friends of a friday night and rocking in at 6am. she hasn't deemed it necessary to alter her lifestyle since the addition of children.

and another case....

i received an email yesterday from a friend who was complaining that she's sick of being a '24/7 mum'. she recounted her stressful day and yes, i agree, it's pretty full on. but unsurprising. it was made up of the sorts of things i actually expected 'housewifery' to be made up of. it's exactly the same stuff that i know i'd be getting myself into if i chose to traipse down that path myself.

what has caused an entire generation of women to conjure up unrealistic expectations about what "life after breeding" consists of? is it all these 'role models' in the media who make it seem like chicks can have their cake and eat it too?

this modern thinking about the chick going out to work after spitting out kids because it's her "right" is overlooking one crucial factor - there are kids that need to be raised. and not in fucking babyfarms. and let's face it - most women are going to be spitting out a couple of kids on the trot, so it's not particularly feasible for her to spit them out and the husband stay home to raise them (until later at least) because she'll be up the duff again in no time.

a big part of this is that society no longer values the role of mothering. i admit that i've been guilty of it - i've always felt more compassion to my dad than my mum because he's gone out to work every day of his life to support a family while mum (i perceived) sat around all day watching soapies, talking on the phone and eating. it's only now that i'm starting to understand the sacrifices mum made and the work she actually did.

at the same time it's not viable to remunerate stay-at-home mums with a 'wage' because we just don't have the economic resources to do it.

the other thing that is annoying is that it's really only women who have a 'choice' to stay at home or work. and yeah...we beat the 'stay at home dad' drum but it's no where near becoming the done thing. women bitch and moan about the struggle to 'have it all' but forget that they're lucky to have a choice - men know that from the time they're old enough to work, they've got a lifetime on the treadmill ahead.

so anyway, the questions i'm trying to raise here are: do you think the modern woman has an unrealistic expectation of what motherhood involves? how is this going to impact on how children are raised in the future? and do you think our efforts to 'accept all types of family situations' is further contributing to the devaluing of the role of 'mother'?

[Fashion Zombies!]

Obviously a lot of big modern factors are here.

Women don't have to stay at home anymore, there are other options. If this was in 'the olden days' or even not too long ago they could complain all they like, however it would not do anything because they're still stuck at home with the kids. Now I wasn't alive back then so I have no idea how much Mum's complained however I believe it wasn't that much. Why? Because that's just what was supposed to happen.

There are also more modern things than we think. Take the baby bonus for example. People are becoming mothers at a young age for a bit of money that will get blown in a short amount of time and they're stuck with a kid. They don't think things through, and they've thrown their nightclubbing days away, unless they will neglect their kids, and I bet they will.

Another prime example is people getting pregnant so they can be dole bludgers. It's terrible, I know. I have a cousin who is older than me, by about 10 years. Centrelink was getting onto her and trying to get her off her ass to get a job, then one day soon after she announced she was pregnant. Her friend was also getting hassled by Centrelink as her son had turned 8, what do ya know, she becomes pregnant too!

It's really hard to think of how the children of the future will be because of this. You have to remember that there are still great mums who make sacrifices for their kids.

It's not a new thing about mums not caring about their kids and leaving them with their parents to look after. While it's increasing, it has been around for a while. I used to be good friends with a guy who's mum went out every weekend and was never home, but he still loved his Mum the same and it actually taught him how to look after himself, and do things for himself.

[.]

how do you know he 'still loved his mum the same'? i mean, it's not like he'd been able to experience an alternate universe to understand any other kind of bond. i think we love out parents by default anyway, unless they're completely abusive bastards or we are narcissistic fuckers.

i hear your point about the welfare spawners but what scares me most is that the two women i referred to in my original post were regular, run of the mill, normal chicks.

i mean, imagine being a kid and going along with your life and then suddenly your mum up and leaves because "she's sick of being a mum". what sort of impact would that have?! hopefully nobody would tell the kids that, but they'll find out at some point, surely. and they'll be asking 'why has mummy gone?' - how can one answer that?

i guess it just angers and confuses me how these women have no concept of what's going to be involved until it's too late? and then, when realising the fuck up they've made, at least have a sense of responsibility to see it through? (then again, the latter is probably more an indication of our 'no personal responsibility' society we live in).

[Lord Biscuit©]

Strangely, I tend to agree with you yakster.

There is too much of this 'supermum' expectation going on. TV is full of it in lifestyle and super-model mum programs.

Many other cultures, like islander, aborigine, Maori etc value community way higher than a lot of us, and seem to recognise 'family' in a different way. We are more 'every man for himself', which misses out on a lot of what community has to offer. You often see these people have a culture of everyone bringing up/caring for the children, not just a mum or mum/dad. So support is a lot stronger.

As for your first mention friend, I can't imagine that any normal person could walk out on their kids for long without suffering from immense amounts of guilt.

[grooviechickie]

This is a hard one, Yak.

Stemming from feminism (yes, I blame it to an extent), it's also our society, advertising and marketing that makes women believe that they can "have it all" - a career, husband, children, two cars, the McMansion, the white picket fence...

The reality hits alot of women like a huge slap in the face. I swear that I thought it was going to be easy, really easy. I felt the pressure to have all the "right" baby gear, the "right" car, be the "right" kind of mother etc. And the thing is, other parents will tell you that it's damned hard work and that you'll have sleepless nights, temper tantrums, and that the finances will suffer. But I find that pregnant women can't seem to see past the labour and early days of babyhood.

After that, it's all a bit of a blur.

The thing is, feminists were trying to show that women could be more than baby factories. And it's true, for sure. But in the process, we've adopted this "supermum-I-must-be-perfect-and-wonderful" ideal that is just not feasible.

I will admit something here *waits for judgement nervously*.

Many years ago, I couldn't handle the pressure of working, the husband working, the kids, all the housework (because I did every single bit of it)... I hated being the one who ran the household, who had to arrange the doctor's appointments, make sure we had enough flour, ensure all the washing was done etc. It had become something I was expected to do and I really thought I was going to lose my marbles. The kids were such a drain and I had no energy. Looking back, I was depressed.

I broke up with the hubby and he moved into his mum's house. After two months, the kids wanted to live with him. And do you know what? I WAS RELIEVED. Sad at being rejected, yes, but happy that I no longer had the major responsibility.

He saw what it was like from my side of the fence, and boy, did it shock the shit out of him!!!

Two months after that, the hubby and I worked it all out and got back together. Things changed and alot of the bad emotional abuse and other such stuff was eradicated from our relationship, and we haven't looked back. Occasionally I grumble about still being the one who does everything, but I have come to a level of acceptance about it.

I don't know exactly where I was going with this.    I'm doing alot of that recently. 

[Keridwen]

It's like what you were saying before, Yak, about maternal instincts kicking in. We grow up and we're all like you were and I am - saying that we don't want kids, we'd rather be career-minded and all that jazz. But then I suppose as the years roll on, everyone has this urge to become brood mares. And this doesn't equate with their past ideals, so they've got all these conflicting thoughts and emotions - the result is a kid (for the purposes of discussion). But perhaps after the kid is spat out, the maternal instincts decrease and we're left going "what the fuck did I do THAT for?". Not excusing the woman who "got sick of being a mother" because that's ridiculous, it's her responsibility now.

Another potential reason for wanting it all, is dependency. This age has spawned a lot of fiercely independent women, and most of us cringe at the thought of being financially dependant on a man. But, if we were to stay at home and give up our careers then we would be. Dependent that is.

[.]

GC : you raise an interesting point re you doing ALL the work. i think that's an issue too - 'housewives' are often expected to do *everything*....with no holidays, no weekends, no long service leave and no remuneration.

having said that, there has been a growing expectation that men DO need to contribute to the household rather than just going to work, coming home and putting their feet up and having dinner served before having a token pork before bed

i think another contributing factor is that there is such a huge pressure, as you say, to *have* the right stuff and *do* the right stuff by your kid. if you don't, you're saddled with 'bad mother guilt'. we've developed this mentality that kids MUST have nikes/ipod/ps2/whatever because if they don't they'll get ostracised at school. they MUST do sport/gym/music/art/drama/whatever to give them every possible opportunity to succeed in life. fathers are generally too absorbed in their work to be at the coalface with all of this stuff.

keridwen: yeah you make a good point about women being hesitant to become financially dependent on a man. but i think that in itself has contributed to relationships generally being shallow, crappy things - there's no 'forced teamwork' because these days it's mostly two independent bodies doing their own thing in the context of a relationship.

[Lord Biscuit©]

Couples who have separate bank accounts intrigue me. I hear of it a bit, but what is the reason? I wonder if it is lack of commitment.

[grooviechickie]

We have separate bank accounts, but we pool our money together.

[Adi]

Couples who have separate bank accounts intrigue me. I hear of it a bit, but what is the reason? I wonder if it is lack of commitment.

My parents have several separate bank accounts and several combined ones. Because my dad has a high-paid job and my mum doesn't work at all, they have the highest interest-paying, highest balance accounts in Mum's name only to avoid paying the top tax rate on the interest earnt. Certainly nothing to do with lack of commitment, just making the most of the taxation system.

Personally, I think it's a smart move for couples to have their own account, as well as one or more combined ones too. It's a safety net for in case anything does go wrong in the marriage which might seem perfect at the start but can rapidly deteriorate. If I were getting married, I'd want my own account still, I'm an independent person. Obviously I'd pool the money, but if I did have to make a rapid escape I would have my own money to live off.

[depreciative jones]

I thoroughly enjoyed the application of the word 'spit' throughout this thread. Very maternal.

In my family I have both two very different examples of modern mothering. My elder sister now has two kids. Despite being prone to stress before having children (as a child I took undue delight in harassing her, just to watch her neck blotch red with rage), she now manages to juggle full time work, household organisation and a busy social life, whilst still spending heaps of time with her kids. The key to her success, I am almost certain, lies in the fact that her husband shares the household chores, and spent a year at home after the second child was born doing pretty much everything. Then you have my other sister: knocked up by a schizophrenic who went off his medication, she still binges her way through a month's supply of uppers during 12 hour parties every Saturday night. Fortunately for the kid, my parents are excellent and willing babysitters.

As for me, I've always had very little interest in having children. Unlike a lot of other people who get baby blind and only focus on the fun stuff, I've always tended to see more of the negative. When I think of babies, I think of screaming, shitting, demanding, draining, ungrateful cash-funnels who will inevitably resent you in your dotage and squander the last of your money while you rot in a nursing home. Curiously, this opinion has very little to do with my relationship with my parents or my memories of childhood. Both are, on the whole, rather good. Most likely I've formed this opinion based on the children I see around me today. I have little confidence in my own ability to raise children any better, as I'm inherently selfish and addicted to freedom.

If I were to name one thing that I think is the main cause of the bad parenting we might witness, I'd say it was ignorance. Most people expect a certain level of training before they begin any new job, and yet very few seek out independent training when it comes to parenting (which is, arguably, one of the most difficult and time consuming jobs to get right). Most people tend to assume that parenting will come naturally, and will be a blur of powdered bottoms, picnics, piano recitals and proud graduations.

Has this misconception primarily come from media? Perhaps. We are often shown women who balance everything in their lives; most women's magazines are full of saccharine advice on how to be the greatest Mum, whilst still packing in power lunches with CEOs and having 12 orgasms a night. Very few magazines focus on terrible mothering, with the glaring exception of Britney Spears. It almost seems as though mothering is still sacred, even in an age of front-page photos displaying a boozed-up Lindsay Lohan with knickerless legs akimbo spilling out of a limousine. Perhaps if these trashy starlet tramps had a child clutched to one teat more often, expectations and perceptions about mothering would be a little lower.

Couples who have separate bank accounts intrigue me. I hear of it a bit, but what is the reason? I wonder if it is lack of commitment.

I've been with my partner for nearly 10 years now, and we still have separate bank accounts. For me, it has nothing to do with a lack of commitment; I wholly expect to be with my partner until the end of our days. The reason is simple: he's crap with cash. If we want to buy things together, we'll pool funds in one of the accounts (and this time consuming process has the additional benefit of limiting impulse spending). My partner is fantastic in so many and varied ways, yet he always manages to exceed his income (and that means a loan from the Bank of Jones).  I do have one shared account, however: we live in a share house and have a mutual house account that everyone contributes to, which we use to pay all bills and rent.

[SG]

i think we love out parents by default anyway, unless they're completely abusive bastards or we are narcissistic fuckers.

I am a narcissistic fucker and I love my mum.

SG

[Truckarella]

I know a couple of footy teams that loved yer mum back in the day too.

Isn't our unwillingness to value to a mum's work due feminism not being embraced, rather than feminism failing us?  Aren't we simply continuing to devalue domestic roles, and insist that women with options put a 'tick in every box' by raising gifted kids/career/22 inch waist/shiny managable hair.  When women find themselves unsupported or forgotten in domestic roles, don't we jump up and down telling them they have the choice to do whatever, so shut up and thank your husband he let you be a feminist?

Gah, too thirsty to formulate thoughts.

I agree Yak, that 'sacrifice' is a lost notion to a lot of people these days, and if household credit didn't run at the level it did, work/home choices may be different.

[Bookworm.]

I have a slightly different take on this.

When I was 9 my dad went back to uni (he is still studying...) and my mum supported all six of us on her teachers wage. She started working weekends and some afternoons at a coaching college, and was a private tutor to a few kids. I barely saw her during this time, and my dad was the one who would get us ready for school and look after us on weekends and stuff. I became really close to my dad, to a point where I will still tell him anything. But I hated my mum at the time. I could never understand why she was so grumpy all of the time, and she always used to snap at the smallest things. It was only when I got to high school that I even started talking to her properly (she taught at the school I went to, so we were forced to talk in the car on the way) and I actually got to know her. While I will always be closer to my dad becuase he was constantly there as a kid, I admire my mum to no end. She is amazing, but I often wonder how she feels about the time when she was doing this. She must have felt liked she missed a lot (she left for work in the mornings before we woke up), as my sister was only little at the time and spent most of her time with my mum's parents or a baby sitter. I wonder if I would be even closer to her now if she hadn't done all of that.....

[.]

I am a narcissistic fucker and I love my mum.
SG

well, narcissists only 'love' others if they are a feeder of their narcissism.

anyway. what you're talking about is called 'oedipus complex' isnt it?