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Author Topic: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement  (Read 2763 times)

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Pertinax

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Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« on: June 25, 2007, 09:27:47 PM »

After thousands of years of persecution the Israeli's have finally caught up with those most evil of perpetrators... the defenseless Bedouin. 

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/874814.html
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Thaluikhain

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 10:21:48 PM »

Well, that's what happens if you use land which isn't yours.  Just because you force them to move there from their homes 50 years ago, they think they own the place.
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Pertinax

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 10:49:02 PM »

Does anyone, apart from me, wish something bad, and I mean really bad, happens to the Israelis?

Seriously, they dispossess defenseless Bedouin tribespeople and forcibly move them to another location where they peacefully reside for 50 years only to fuck them over all over again.

What kind of inhumane race of people doesn't see a problem with this kind of behaviour?
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DiddlySquat

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2007, 12:12:42 AM »

I'm not up on the Middle East sitch. It has too much conflicting history to make much sense, but I can't help feeling that the Israelis are as much to blame as anyone else.
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bollocks

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 01:50:22 AM »

What kind of inhumane race of people doesn't see a problem with this kind of behaviour?

perti, is this another veiled attempt to argue whether jewish people are a race or not?  :roll:  :lol:
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Pertinax

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2007, 01:40:30 PM »

No, 'locks, we've already sorted that one. Jews are a religion, just like Catholics. Israeli's are a race.  :wink:
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bollocks

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2007, 02:40:14 PM »

No, 'locks, we've already sorted that one. Jews are a religion, just like Catholics. Israeli's are a race.  :wink:

ahhh.

that'd be the 'royal' we then.
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Thaluikhain

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2007, 03:29:37 PM »

Does anyone, apart from me, wish something bad, and I mean really bad, happens to the Israelis?

Well, large numbers of people in the Middle East, or so we are told.  I dare say including Bedouins.
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arsenic cookie

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2007, 03:32:58 PM »

 :| but if what you say is true, Sutekh, something awful would have happened to the Israelis already. There are more than enough people in the Middle East to go around.
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Lord Biscuit©

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2007, 03:49:45 PM »

Well, you have to be a little more selective than "Israelis". The article you link, for instance, is in an Israeli paper. About 50% of respondents seem to be against the action. So it's not as if all Israelis are supportive of such actions.

A question would be, how un-supportive are people in Israel to such actions? Would they protest? Would they offer support to the affected people? Or would they just shake their heads and turn the page?

As you probably know, this whole "resettlement" process in Israel started back in the 60s with various degrees of success and failure. Various methods being used to try to urbanise the Bedouin folk. Money, alternative housing, force etc. Over 80% of the Bedouin have relocated without being forced - attracted by incentives, jobs, education etc. However, 18% were forced to move. Is there a solution for these people?

You need to also consider that the Israelis are not alone in this program of resettling Bedouin people. Countries in Nth Africa, Syria, Jordan and Oman are just a few with similar programs. A big difference in Israel is that 1, the resettlement is not voluntary, and 2, it is implemented by a non-Arabic government - making it somewhat more unpopular. They seem to have allowed a 50 year window to allow for generational change (you can't just get a nomad to settle in a house - it just doesn't work)...but you're never going to get a faultless transition.

I think one of the problems is that governments don't like populations that wonder about the place. Land ownership is far more important to governments and citizens than ever before. This means you can't have people traipsing around setting up their houses where-ever they like. Nomadic people generally dont have the concept of land ownership.

It's too easy to hoist the 'lets blame Israel' flag when you see these kind of articles without knowing the background to it. Clearly, it would appear that the Israeli government could handle things a little more smoothly - tipping people out of their houses rather publicly doesn't look like a major PR coup. But then, Israel have never been that good at 'spin'.

The question is, how could they have handled it better?
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Thaluikhain

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2007, 05:32:11 PM »

I think one of the problems is that governments don't like populations that wonder about the place. Land ownership is far more important to governments and citizens than ever before. This means you can't have people traipsing around setting up their houses where-ever they like. Nomadic people generally dont have the concept of land ownership.

And yet they have been living in their houses there for some 50 years?
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Lord Biscuit©

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2007, 06:04:01 PM »

And yet they have been living in their houses there for some 50 years?
No, that is not specified. It's not even specified that they had houses (I think the term 'shack' was used). However, on the surface it seems likely they have been living in the area for some time - albeit as a very small community - up to 100 people.

I must say it is a very remote and desolate area where they live - basically desert. Why do the government not want them there? I don't know. Why would such a small number of people want to live there? I don't know that either - maybe links to their past. Other countries like Australia and the US has set "native" areas (reservations) where certain people can inhabit and live off the land with some level of autonomy. I wonder if the Israel govt could do that? Maybe they have already - again, don't know.
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Thaluikhain

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2007, 06:39:12 PM »

I must say it is a very remote and desolate area where they live - basically desert. Why do the government not want them there? I don't know.

The article said they were kicking them off to build a village for Israeli people...guess they need the living room.
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Lord Biscuit©

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2007, 07:10:21 PM »

I must say, there seem to be a few Israeli based sites opposing these demolitions/moving of people. I see the settlements in question are at the north end of the Negev, which is certainly a lot more inhabitable than the middle of southern regions.

https://israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/6838/index.php
http://dukium.org/index.php
http://www.wri-irg.org/news/network/msg00236.html (Israeli author)
http://www.seamless-israel.org/atir%20hiran.html

It is hard to fathom why this bit of land is in question. The government own it, which means they can negotiate to formalise the settlement, and provide the services it needs. Would that kind of solution been politically unpopular? Why? We know from other Jewish settlements that the Jewish hardliners are powerful, and tend to be good at getting their own, even if it's against the general will of the country. It would be great to see this type (and similar type throughout the region) be marginalised somehow.
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Wolfe Tone

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Re: Not Ethnic Cleansing, Peaceful Settlement
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 03:57:11 PM »

Hmm.......

You know your views on Isreal are unpopular when the hardcore rightwingers are against you.

It's very easy to look at the atrocities of Isreal without looking at the other side of the line
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