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Author Topic: Noise in the Scale of C !!!  (Read 3365 times)

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foolestroupe

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Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« on: May 14, 2007, 05:56:00 PM »

I'm still laughing - and crying - crying that we have this sort of person as an elected member of Government...

I have lodged a complaint about the excess level of noise from a certain musical event. I discovered that the legislation refers to all noise - no matter what source is to be measured on the "A" frequency weighting network - even though this cuts off massive amount of Bass and middle and 'Music' should really be measured on the "C" frequency weighting network...


I have just received the following delightful paragraph in a letter from the Queensland Minister for Environment & Multiculturalism

Quote

Mr XXXX has suggested that the "A" frequency weighting network as prescribed in the Environmental Protection Regulation Regulation 1998 and Queensland Environment Protection Agency - Noise Measurement manual for the measurement and control of environmental noise is inappropriate for measurement of music that is performed in a C scale. However the "A" weighting network is applied across the entire spectrum of audible frequencies and should not be mistaken as having any relationship to a musical scale.

Unquote

ROFL...

Now, I don't have an engineering degree (even thought I DO know EXACTLY what I am talking about with regard to this!), so who can help me make them understand?.... :-)

Some lawyers who have experience internationally wouldn't go astray either.... :-)

As a free-lance journalist - what with an election coming up soon, I can see that I am going to have some fun with this...

The Toowoomba Chronicle (and the local radio and TV stattion) gives the AGMF event lots of publicity before and after the event - so this is headed your way - for a start!  :-)
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Nick 2

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2007, 05:58:36 PM »

you sound like a spoilsport and a whinger. shot in the dark here, i reckon you're an anglo

what is this 'frequency weighting network' you speak of
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Lord Biscuit©

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2007, 06:07:50 PM »

The Toowoomba Chronicle? You think anyone here know anything about some hick-town rag? You people really do have too much time on your hands. Next thing you'll be telling us you'd rather die of thirst than drink recycled water!  :lol:
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Pertinax

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2007, 07:44:34 PM »

This from the University of NSW, Physics Department.

The filters used for dBA and dBC

The most widely used sound level filter is the A scale, which roughly corresponds to the inverse of the 40 dB (at 1 kHz) equal-loudness curve. Using this filter, the sound level meter is thus less sensitive to very high and very low frequencies. Measurements made on this scale are expressed as dBA. The C scale is practically linear over several octaves and is thus suitable for subjective measurements only for very high sound levels. Measurements made on this scale are expressed as dBC. There is also a (rarely used) B weighting scale, intermediate between A and C. The figure below shows the response of the A filter (left) and C filter, with gains in dB given with respect to 1 kHz.

They say the "C" weighting scale is only good for "subjective measurements only for very high sound levels".

In Queensland, the acceptable level for most licensed venues is 82 dBA at the nearest residence likely to be effected. Hardly what you'd call a high sound level.
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Kelchables

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2007, 07:55:24 PM »

according to our dB sheet we got in music industry, 120dB is the average sound for a plugged in rock band to get to.


and it would maybe also be 82 dB as that level of sound can cause hearing damage after eight hours. and that's a pretty lengthy space of time. 
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foolestroupe

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2007, 11:52:44 PM »


what is this 'frequency weighting network' you speak of

Research! You sound just ignorant enough to get a job in the Minister's Office as her Technical Advisor - her current one will probably be looking for a new job soon.
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foolestroupe

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 12:02:49 AM »

This from the University of NSW, Physics Department.

The filters used for dBA and dBC

The most widely used sound level filter is the A scale, which roughly corresponds to the inverse of the 40 dB (at 1 kHz) equal-loudness curve. Using this filter, the sound level meter is thus less sensitive to very high and very low frequencies. Measurements made on this scale are expressed as dBA. The C scale is practically linear over several octaves and is thus suitable for subjective measurements only for very high sound levels. Measurements made on this scale are expressed as dBC. (snip)

They say the "C" weighting scale is only good for "subjective measurements only for very high sound levels".

In Queensland, the acceptable level for most licensed venues is 82 dBA at the nearest residence likely to be effected. Hardly what you'd call a high sound level.

"only for very high sound levels"

While most audio engineers are familiar with the A-weighting curve, which is said to reflect the 'equal-loudness contours' derived initially by Fletcher and Munson (1933) and later Robinson and Dadson (1956), few seem to realise that these curves relate only to the subjective loudness of pure tones, not noise. Furthermore, recent experimental work casts doubt on their accuracy.

Nevertheless, it will be noted that A-weighting would be a better match to the loudness curve if it fell much more steeply above 10 kHz (and thus gave more relative emphasis to the lower frequencies), and it can be assumed that a better match was not aimed for originally because steep filters were more difficult to construct in the early days of electronics. Topology also can amplify the perceived level off the premises, including reinforcinment due to reflection and echos. Also lower frequencies carry further - and 'rock music' has the lower frequencies boosted massively, which the A scale is highly inefficient at capturing. This factoring - the A scale to put it simply - is not relevant when the bass frequencies are massively artifically boosted. 'Music' as played comprises many simultaeneous tones, and also much percussive energy with amplified drum beats too.

At one stage before calling The Mayor personally on her mobile, I measured an amplified drum solo at over 90 Db(C) several hundred meters off the premises, and in an area shielded by houses and trees.

While people are considerably more sensitive to noise in the region of 6 kHz than they are to tones of equivalent level the music pumped out at 'rock music festivals' tends to have massive bass boosting - which is clearly shown by Mr Pidgeon telling me on the mobile that he was reading nearer the 60Db level at the source on the A scale, while several hundred meters away levels in excess of 90 Db werere read on the C scale. This means that since there is an expected increase in sound level with increasing proximity, the sound level could clearly be well in excess of 100 dB (C) at the source - last year I received information that some stall holders on site had headaches and temporary deafness - irrespective of what the meter was reading on tee dB (A) scale! The A scale discards massive amounts of the bass boost!

Levels of 90 Db (C) and 60 dB (A) were noted under the streetlight next to the Olive 'Peace Tree' in East Creek Park - a few hundred meters off the premises. Similar levels were also recorded between houses several hundred meters from the source which should have shielded the noise - but because of the massive boost given to bass frequencies, and the massive wattage of amplification used, there was no attenuation with distance - something that is to be expected with low and ultra low frequencies. Levels approaching the 90 dB level were also noted at the far south end of East Creek Park - a considerable distance further - no noticeable dropoff in level was noted over that distance, which makes me believe that the topology has an efect.
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foolestroupe

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 12:15:19 AM »

according to our dB sheet we got in music industry, 120dB is the average sound for a plugged in rock band to get to.
 

120dB ... (A)??!!!!

and what did your sheet say that the levels for 'crackling in the ears', 'temporary hearing loss', and 'having to shout to be heard by the person standing next to you' occur at?

Deafness takes about 20-30 years to be noticed significantly... and multiple periods of 'temporary deafness' cause cumulative long term hearing loss.

As a muso (many instruments) who has also spent some years doing theatre sound and lighting tech work as well as ham radio and computing and audio tech work, I will specifically point out the

'However the "A" weighting network is applied across the entire spectrum of audible frequencies and should not be mistaken as having any relationship to a musical scale'

clanger!!!

:-)
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Kelchables

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 12:22:56 AM »

I think it was  :| don't quote me on that it was the start of the year. and duh, hearing loss  can take a while to notice n that stuff and ears can heal.
if you're a muso why were you complaining about 'excess level of noise from a certain musical event' ? relax and enjoy the music. or buy ear plugs if you're near a venue.
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Pertinax

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 02:50:51 AM »

"only for very high sound levels"

While most audio engineers are familiar with the A-weighting curve, which is said to reflect the 'equal-loudness contours' derived initially by Fletcher and Munson (1933) and later Robinson and Dadson (1956), few seem to realise that these curves relate only to the subjective loudness of pure tones, not noise. Furthermore, recent experimental work casts doubt on their accuracy.

Nevertheless, it will be noted that A-weighting would be a better match to the loudness curve if it fell much more steeply above 10 kHz (and thus gave more relative emphasis to the lower frequencies), and it can be assumed that a better match was not aimed for originally because steep filters were more difficult to construct in the early days of electronics. Topology also can amplify the perceived level off the premises, including reinforcinment due to reflection and echos. Also lower frequencies carry further - and 'rock music' has the lower frequencies boosted massively, which the A scale is highly inefficient at capturing. This factoring - the A scale to put it simply - is not relevant when the bass frequencies are massively artifically boosted. 'Music' as played comprises many simultaeneous tones, and also much percussive energy with amplified drum beats too.

At one stage before calling The Mayor personally on her mobile, I measured an amplified drum solo at over 90 Db(C) several hundred meters off the premises, and in an area shielded by houses and trees.

While people are considerably more sensitive to noise in the region of 6 kHz than they are to tones of equivalent level the music pumped out at 'rock music festivals' tends to have massive bass boosting - which is clearly shown by Mr Pidgeon telling me on the mobile that he was reading nearer the 60Db level at the source on the A scale, while several hundred meters away levels in excess of 90 Db werere read on the C scale. This means that since there is an expected increase in sound level with increasing proximity, the sound level could clearly be well in excess of 100 dB (C) at the source - last year I received information that some stall holders on site had headaches and temporary deafness - irrespective of what the meter was reading on tee dB (A) scale! The A scale discards massive amounts of the bass boost!

Levels of 90 Db (C) and 60 dB (A) were noted under the streetlight next to the Olive 'Peace Tree' in East Creek Park - a few hundred meters off the premises. Similar levels were also recorded between houses several hundred meters from the source which should have shielded the noise - but because of the massive boost given to bass frequencies, and the massive wattage of amplification used, there was no attenuation with distance - something that is to be expected with low and ultra low frequencies. Levels approaching the 90 dB level were also noted at the far south end of East Creek Park - a considerable distance further - no noticeable dropoff in level was noted over that distance, which makes me believe that the topology has an efect.
Well that's quite some piece of work. Perhaps you need an independent sound engineer to record the readings at the nearest effected residence at the next event. The Mayor might like the dollars that these events bring in and the Minister may be a total knob but nothing speaks volumes to these people like independent expert evidence and the application of the law.
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foolestroupe

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2007, 12:10:55 AM »

I think it was  :| don't quote me on that it was the start of the year. and duh, hearing loss  can take a while to notice n that stuff and ears can heal.
if you're a muso why were you complaining about 'excess level of noise from a certain musical event' ? relax and enjoy the music. or buy ear plugs if you're near a venue.

When personally measuring the sound levels next to the 'Peace Tree' (several hunderd meters off site), I also learnt something new as a practising musician with a long term practical interest in Gospel Music - I hadn't previously realised that "Gospel Music" could now include a rock band (with amplified drum solos!) heard far away at 90 dB(C)+ with a female 'singer' "Orgasming for Christ" in full Janis Joplin style. You just had to be there, really.

"ears can heal"

Well, you certainly don't know anything about hearing loss then...
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Fritz

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2007, 12:45:56 AM »

When personally measuring the sound levels next to the 'Peace Tree' (several hunderd meters off site), I also learnt something new as a practising musician with a long term practical interest in Gospel Music - I hadn't previously realised that "Gospel Music" could now include a rock band (with amplified drum solos!) heard far away at 90 dB(C)+ with a female 'singer' "Orgasming for Christ" in full Janis Joplin style. You just had to be there, really.

"ears can heal"

Well, you certainly don't know anything about hearing loss then...


 Oh God, I thought you Antioch types faded out with the rest of the shit in the 80's.  :|

"Orgasming for Christ"   :lol: :lol:
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foolestroupe

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Re: Noise in the Scale of C !!!
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2007, 01:13:19 AM »

email reply sent to

The Attorney General and Minister for Justice.

toowoomba.north@parliament.qld.gov.au

explaining the real technical situation and complaining about the inept bumbling in the response by the Minister for Environment & Multiculturalism

Too lengthy to post here.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 01:15:11 AM by foolestroupe »
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