Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[:-) Fred]

I had interesting times as a youth, most people I knew died,  I didn't (can you tell) I chose to stop drinking and doing drugs they did not, I chose to ride a smaller capacity motorcycle with better brakes and work up to the more powerful kind . some of my friends did not, I chose not to break into a porn shop, some of my friends didnot.
Life is full of choices
what you learn influences those choices
I would not choose to change one single thing in my past even the nasty bits because I am currently happy and like the looks of the future, but I would not be who I am or were i am without my past.
My god does not give a rats arse about earth, people or anything less than the universe as a whole. Any other god is a false god certainly any deity who listened or spoke to people does not deserve a capital G

[Lord Biscuit©]

It depends upon what level you are looking at.

At a micro level, every event is the result of a phenomenally complex sequence of events dating back to the beginning of time. If you able to know all of this, then every event would be entirely predictable.

Of course that isn't ever possible. The universe is just bigger than of own comprehension and understanding.

On the other hand, if you are reasonably observant and having some understanding of cause and effect / consequences, then you can have some level of control over your future. I find common sense a great tool as well. I also find it alarming how many people appear to lack it.

The only thing to add to that would be experience (as mentioned by Pert). This gives you a feel for when things are right or wrong, whether something is 'likely' or not etc etc. No matter how many times you read how good a coffee is, or how many times someone tells you a coffee is, you're never gonna know yourself without trying it. The reason is, experience brings in senses/emotions that reinforce lessons learn't.

[.]

The only thing to add to that would be experience (as mentioned by Pert). This gives you a feel for when things are right or wrong, whether something is 'likely' or not etc etc. No matter how many times you read how good a coffee is, or how many times someone tells you a coffee is, you're never gonna know yourself without trying it. The reason is, experience brings in senses/emotions that reinforce lessons learn't.

That's true to some extent.

But do you think we should have another "Nazi Germany" so this generation can "feel what it's like"?

We can learn lessons from the mistakes others have made. I know, for example, my mum got up the duff to some random dude at 19 and her life was pretty much fucked by it - and I've been really cautious to ensure the same doesn't happen to me.

Of course, there are *some* things you can only learn by experiencing yourself, but I think listening and learning to others helps as well (I guess that's kinda what Freddo did when he saw his mates dropping like flies).

[grooviechickie]

I agree that its not what happens to you but how you choose (Now lets not get started on recent research into "free will") to respond to those events and whether or not you learn from your experiences.

Agreed

I suppose my only difference is that (cue the Oprah opening theme) I believe the universe is like eating out at a restaurant - you get what you order. If you say things like, "My life is a mess, I'm always broke, I never seem to be able to get anywhere in my career" etc, then THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WILL GET.

It doesn't seem to matter that what you order is unconscious, subconscious or conscious, either. The universe can be tricky! I could want to win Lotto, and I will get just that: the feeling of wanting to win Lotto. I could say all the positive affirmations that I want (eg "I am worthy of being loved"), but unless I personally really believe that I am worthy of it, it won't be true for me. And that is because really, deep down in some dark recess, we may not actually think that it's true.

I also believe we choose our own reactions to every situation, whether that be because of social conditioning ("Mum said I should always worry about what other people think"), learned responses from previous exchanges ("Last time I told a friend the truth, that her arse really DID look big in that dress, she got angry and is no longer my friend - therefore, I shouldn't tell THIS friend the same thing"), and because of internal unconscious responses (think of all the people who have issues with sex because of previous abuse that they blocked out because it was too traumatic for them to handle).

And I think we have the power to choose our responses to everything. We can choose to fight social conditioning (eg. "As a woman, I will have sex with whomever the hell I want to, when I want to, because I believe that monogamy is a way to keep the masses in line") and we can choose to investigate why we react the way we do to certain events/comments, and delve a little deeper into our subconscious.

It all helps unravel who we are and how we shape our personal lives.

/end hippie rant

[a passing lunatic]

I've always seen my life as the result of a number of outside forces pulling in different directions. These could be people or just random events many of which would not even be aware of the dramatic impact they have, but lately I've started me thinking about this idea.

What are peoples views on the subject? Are we in the drivers seat of our own lives? Or are our experiences a defined by everyone around us? Can we change anything about our lives or are our lives rife with inevitability?

yes.

[Lord Biscuit©]

That's true to some extent.

But do you think we should have another "Nazi Germany" so this generation can "feel what it's like"?

Indeed this generation has no idea what it was like for the soldiers/population of the 1940s, and without constant drilling in and 'Lest We Forget's, we would simply repeat the same catastrophic errors. You only have to check around threads in this forum to realise that people today have little appreciation of life back then.

We can learn lessons from the mistakes others have made. I know, for example, my mum got up the duff to some random dude at 19 and her life was pretty much fucked by it - and I've been really cautious to ensure the same doesn't happen to me.

There is little evidence that people learn lessons from history. A lesson may survive one generation, but not two. If you ever had kids, they are unlikely to learn the lesson you learned from your mum.

Of course, there are *some* things you can only learn by experiencing yourself, but I think listening and learning to others helps as well (I guess that's kinda what Freddo did when he saw his mates dropping like flies).

Because experience brings in all senses, it is far more powerful.

In regard to what Pert said, failure, for many people, is an extremely important lesson. It can be extremely unpleasant, and you wouldn't want to repeat the mistake because you would feel as bad (or worse) as the first time you failed. Similarly with success. The euphoria gained from hard won success (lotto doesn't cut it), is something you want to repeat again and again. The fear of failure and the euphoria of success is what drives many people to do well. It's all very personal, and cannot easily be passed from person to person.

[Nick 2]

Just an entirely irrelevant aside, but

If you able to know all of this, then every event would be entirely predictable.

No it wouldn't. If you go down micro enough you'll find that the strange effect of quantum mechanics make the prediction of a particle's motion impossible. You'd have to settle for extremely accurate predictions of the probability of a particle doing something.

As if that wasn't enough, even if you had nice deterministic rules to apply to the motion of particles, you'd need to know their position, velocity etc with infinite precision, and that's impossible not only because of the uncertainly principle but because infinite precision necessarily implies an infinite amount of information, and so long as the universe is finite it's impossible to store an infinite amount of information anywhere.

If there's any error at all in your data it won't take long before your predictions start to diverge from reality. Even something as simple as a three body system exhibits chaotic behaviour, imagine the consequences for a trillion body system.

Actually, it occurs to me that perhaps a fractal could be used to store an infinite amount of information in a finite space.

Anyway, once you get past that minor problem you're still faced with the impossible task of translating your predictions to something meaningful on the macroscopic scale. The human brain is a good example, it's a hugely complex system of billions of tightly interconnected neurons. Looking at the 'circuit diagram' of the brain won't reveal where intelligence emerges from. Worse still, there are billions and billions of different 'versions' of the brain - assuming of course that everyone's brain development is influenced by their experiences, and I think that's a reasonable suggestion - billions of different 'brain circuits', and for the most part things like intelligence, emotion, empathy .. even the basic stuff, like being able to see, all emerge out of this tangle of neurons.

Reductionism is not the answer.

[grooviechickie]

We probably find out the answer to Life, The Universe And Everthing at the exact moment of death. 

[Nick 2]

we can talk ourselves into anything - our own willpower is astounding. We can talk ourselves into (or out of, if we're accomplished) pain, nausea, mental blocks, and even "who we fall in love with".

Yeah, it's great isn't it. I find my health is connected to my mental state .. stress me out and I get sick, but when I'm on top of things I can defeat illness just by thinking about it (and consuming copious quantities of chilli)

Ultimately everything is a function of your own mind, what you see hear feel etc is all processed by parts of your brain before it gets handed to your consciousness (your 'you' for want of a more elegant phrase) and naturally you would expect everything that you sense to be tainted by your own perception of life the universe and everything. Like GC said, you see what you expect to see. I go one step further and claim that you can affect what you see as 'reality' through force of will.

[Lord Biscuit©]

Just an entirely irrelevant aside, but

No it wouldn't. If you go down micro enough you'll find that the strange effect of quantum mechanics make the prediction of a particle's motion impossible. You'd have to settle for extremely accurate predictions of the probability of a particle doing something.

Without checking, I would say it's probably only 'impossible' because we can never know enough to know the 'why'. As a great man once said, "There are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns" 

[Fritz]

 As a great man once said, "There are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns" 

For the life of me, I cannot remember saying that.

[Lord Biscuit©]

For the life of me, I cannot remember saying that.

An "unknown unknown" I guess then eh? 

[Keridwen]

Yeah, it's great isn't it. I find my health is connected to my mental state .. stress me out and I get sick, but when I'm on top of things I can defeat illness just by thinking about it (and consuming copious quantities of chilli)

Huh, you're the lucky one then. All I have managed to do with this newfound willpower is make myself sick. In a psychosomatic way, as opposed to stress induced. Bloody nutcases, our brains are.

Ultimately everything is a function of your own mind, what you see hear feel etc is all processed by parts of your brain before it gets handed to your consciousness (your 'you' for want of a more elegant phrase) and naturally you would expect everything that you sense to be tainted by your own perception of life the universe and everything. Like GC said, you see what you expect to see. I go one step further and claim that you can affect what you see as 'reality' through force of will.

Expect what you expect to see... how far does this go? I'm sure every sci-fi novel under the sun has covered this... but are we actually talking physical 'see' or just psychological/social 'see'? Because I can't see how we'd physically 'see' what we expect to... perhaps we observe more when we expect certain observations?

[a passing lunatic]

Without checking, I would say it's probably only 'impossible' because we can never know enough to know the 'why'. As a great man once said, "There are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns" 

Metaphysics. No one cares, because you can't (probably - in the mathematical sense of can't, and very very very ....etc probably in the physical sense), and it's really a moot point that we could if the universe were fundamentally different. That said, I'm not entirely sure I read the context of that comment, so I'm making an assumption about what you're talking about.

And seeing is obviously a function of our brains...I would've thought. I mean, information doesn't necessarily have to be interpreted somehow to see stuff (in the sense of, the infinity of other possibilities of what could happen to it haven't been eliminated), but I'll be fucked if I could think up any other way for it to happen.

Has anyone read Godel Escher Bach? Good book, at least the first half of it.

Does it matter? I'm quite happy with my sense of being able to determine what I do. Others may prefer a sense of fate dictating stuff. Whatever floats your boat. No point asking such questions unless you reckon you've got a shot (doesn't have to be a good one, though) at finding a plausible and testable answer them, I reckon, and otherwise just make up whatever and run with it.

[Nick 2]

Has anyone read Godel Escher Bach? Good book, at least the first half of it.

Best book ever, and an irrefutable argument against the presumption that we'll ever understand our own minds as far as I'm concerned.