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Author Topic: Who's running the state?  (Read 9008 times)

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SG

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2007, 08:44:14 PM »

Yeah the biggy for me was his/our involvement in the illegal invasion of Iraq,

So you support genocide then?

thereby plunging said country into civil war

As opposed to the regime taking out the Kurds and the MArsh people unopposed becuase they had the armed forces to play with....

and making our own country an even bigger target for terrorism.

Um, because that's happened.....

You also forgot to mention the scrapping of cross-media ownership laws,

Which is a bad thing why?  Instead of reciting the mantra why not give us an opinion of your OWN.

I suspect that'll keep you busy for a while....

the AWB scandal,

That's JWH's fault?

Wow.

Give me the logic on that one.....

mandatory detention of refugees seeking asylum in our country,

Like pretty much every other country including that country so often held up as a paragon of humanity: New Zealand?

new sedition laws,

Why?

using taxpayers money to push propaganda on workchoices,

As opposed to those opposed to them spending money I assume?



 scrapping funding to NGO's that have the audacity to question government policy

Such as?  If that were seriously the case, as opposed to being a nice conspiracy theory for you nutters, then the ABC would have closed a long time ago.

Whoops, why let facts get in the way of a raving loonie theory.

and refusal to ratify the Kyoto Protocol.

Wow, a piece of paper that is so open to manipulation it isn't funny.

Now, go back and revisit your hypothesis.  And tell us why YOU (not your teacher, not your socialist activist frineds, not the Resistance mantra but YOUR view) think as you do.

In a logically constructed way please.

SG
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Mez

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2007, 08:56:07 PM »

Gough Whitlam.

nuf said.

SG

Gough Whitlam was the best thing to happen to Australia.  Medicine and education immediately became free, giving us a brief glimpse of what it might be like to live in a truly  egalitarian society.  It has taken successive Labor and Liberal governments over 35 years to (mostly) dismantle the social justice that Gough put in place.  They haven't quite succeeded even now.
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Thaluikhain

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2007, 09:21:14 PM »

So you support genocide then?

That's a nice false dichotomy there.  So you'd say that the continuing fighting in Iraq is stopping people from being killed?

Like pretty much every other country including that country so often held up as a paragon of humanity: New Zealand?

In some countries, illegal immigrants are allowed to remain in the community while the decision to let them stay here permanently or not is being made.
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SG

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2007, 09:23:10 PM »

Gough Whitlam was the best thing to happen to Australia.  Medicine and education immediately became free, giving us a brief glimpse of what it might be like to live in a truly  egalitarian society.  It has taken successive Labor and Liberal governments over 35 years to (mostly) dismantle the social justice that Gough put in place.  They haven't quite succeeded even now.

And there we have the ultimate argument that some people simply shouldn't be alowed to vote.

HE WAS GOING TO BANKRUPT THE COUNTRY!

And once that happens you can kiss free medicene,education and all those wonderful arts things goodbye.

Gough embedded the belief that the Left are not just poor economic managers, they are ratshit economic managers.

In some ways he did us all a favour in that regard I suppose....

SG
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SG

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2007, 09:27:00 PM »

That's a nice false dichotomy there.  So you'd say that the continuing fighting in Iraq is stopping people from being killed?

Yes.

People are still being killed but at least:

1.  The rate is lower
2.  One side doesn't have all the power to murder the entire opposing side
3.  There is a chance it will end

Not a great chance, but at least there's a chance.

In some countries, illegal immigrants are allowed to remain in the community while the decision to let them stay here permanently or not is being made.

Where?

And I bet they have problems with those people no turning up promptly for the plane home if the case goes agains them.....

SG
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Fritz

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2007, 09:36:45 PM »

Gough Whitlam was the best thing to happen to Australia.  Medicine and education immediately became free, giving us a brief glimpse of what it might be like to live in a truly  egalitarian society.  It has taken successive Labor and Liberal governments over 35 years to (mostly) dismantle the social justice that Gough put in place.  They haven't quite succeeded even now.

 :lol: :lol:

Oh mez, you kill me  :lol:
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Fritz

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2007, 08:58:47 PM »

Just had to bump this thread on this ongoing saga.

From the NSW labor party point of view, it looks like it is worse not being a woman to actually beating one.

I think Iemma's new name should be McGoo. Oh McGoo, you've done it again!  :lol:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gibson-sacked-for-not-being-a-woman/2007/04/10/1175971099957.html
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Mez

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2007, 09:07:07 PM »

:lol: :lol:

Oh mez, you kill me  :lol:

So pleased to be of service, Fritz.  You may write me into your entertainment expenses. :-)
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Lord Biscuit©

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2007, 10:07:06 PM »

Just had to bump this thread on this ongoing saga.

From the NSW labor party point of view, it looks like it is worse not being a woman to actually beating one.

I think Iemma's new name should be McGoo. Oh McGoo, you've done it again!  :lol:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gibson-sacked-for-not-being-a-woman/2007/04/10/1175971099957.html
The disturbing thing in that article was that the Shooters Party have 2 seat. Now, if it was the Hooters Party, well that'd be OK, but Shooters?
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DiddlySquat

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2007, 10:29:21 PM »

HE WAS GOING TO BANKRUPT THE COUNTRY!

And once that happens you can kiss free medicene,education and all those wonderful arts things goodbye.

Economic management vs health, education and the arts: you're linking the 2 in a rather bizarre fashion.

Sure we need good economic management, but we equally need good health, education and the arts.

JWH's mantra is almost exclusively the economy and outside threats. He says that we must first of all have good economic management above all else. This is obviously wrong.

For example, what's the use of creating the world's best economy when you forget to provide adequate education and training for the people to take advantage of it?

We need both sides to be managed well, and JWH doesn't have a clue when it comes to the humanities.
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Fritz

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2007, 09:35:43 AM »

Crap.

Economic Management is the cornerstone to ensuring these other facilities can operate. If you don't have sound economic management, you do not have the basis to build for these other matters such a education, health etc. So therefore, you are wrong on the basis that you can care all you want for health and education and believe JWH does not care but to believe that he maliciously does not give a shit about these services is just blind silly.

Gough on the other hand nearly plunged the country is dire straits on an economic basis because he thought more about what other people were thinking than actually running the economy of the country. If this had gone any further it would have taken decades to recover from it.

JWH has not forgotten to create education facilities etc and the only reason you think he does not give a shit about humanities is becuase you are lead to believe this through false ad campaigns and drivel from the left and unions.
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SG

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2007, 09:35:54 AM »

Economic management vs health, education and the arts: you're linking the 2 in a rather bizarre fashion.

Which is the entire problem he Left have, they seem to regard having to pay for things as being unconnected to the things themselves.

Sure we need good economic management, but we equally need good health, education and the arts.

Can you have the former without the latter?  Can you have the latter without the former?

Sound economic management is teh foundation for a productive culture, and by productive I include decent health care for all, artistic freedom, the ability to explore our world in any of it's facets and so on.

If you're country is so bankrupt that it needs everyone working at a subsistence level then none of that will happen.

JWH's mantra is almost exclusively the economy and outside threats. He says that we must first of all have good economic management above all else. This is obviously wrong.

Why?

My view, FWIW, is that if we have good economic management then the population can do whatever they desire to make the others happen.  I expect teh govt to create the environment where a sound economy allows those people motivated enough to deliver certain aspects they find appealling (be they artistic, scientific, personal, spiritual, sporting or whatever other category there is).

None of which can be done if we're all working to pay back crippling loans for money that governments (of both persuasions) have used for pork barrelling and ultimately wasted (eg NSW property tax bonanza, GST funds etc)

For example, what's the use of creating the world's best economy when you forget to provide adequate education and training for the people to take advantage of it?

There's the rub.  Assuming we agree that we have a very good economy (not necesarily the world's best), then are we providing adequate education and trainign opportunities?

On a global scale the answer is a resounding YES.  Sure we get the campaigns for more money into unis, TAFEs, schools etc, that is a PRODUCT of sound economic management.  We have the money, look at the level of schooling we provide, the level of access to universtiy is incredible and so on.  Do we NEED more money in thoseareas?  No.  Would it be NICE to have more money in those areas? YES.

But if anyone truly believes we are not providing access to good basic education then they need to look around at the world.  We may not be the absolute best (in the same way we're not the best economy) but education is certainly well covered in Australia.

We need both sides to be managed well, and JWH doesn't have a clue when it comes to the humanities.

Nor does he need to.  He and his govt have created the conditions for anyone who desires to put the effort in that they can do so.  If you're really into the humanities then this is in many ways a golden age, you are free to pursue those opportunities as you see fit.

Of course, if youexpect the governemnt to pay for all those humaities and associated interests then you'll be disappointed.  You are expected to get them up and running with like minded souls rather than relying on government handouts.

SG
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DiddlySquat

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2007, 11:42:04 PM »

Crap.

Economic Management is the cornerstone to ensuring these other facilities can operate. If you don't have sound economic management, you do not have the basis to build for these other matters such a education, health etc. So therefore, you are wrong on the basis that you can care all you want for health and education and believe JWH does not care but to believe that he maliciously does not give a shit about these services is just blind silly.

Gough on the other hand nearly plunged the country is dire straits on an economic basis because he thought more about what other people were thinking than actually running the economy of the country. If this had gone any further it would have taken decades to recover from it.

JWH has not forgotten to create education facilities etc and the only reason you think he does not give a shit about humanities is becuase you are lead to believe this through false ad campaigns and drivel from the left and unions.


Rubbish.

If you don't educate, keep healthy and provide for the arts then you can't have good economic management.

You need both, hand in hand.

I could argue about Gough but it the argument would be too hypothetical to make it not worth it.

I think Howard's so-called good economic management is pretty much smoke and mirrors. The foundation for a robust economy was set by Keating with his major reforms. When Howard got in unemployment and interest rates were spiralling down. Howard did keep his steady hand on the levers, but he's had a few major stuff ups that have yet to come back and bite us e.g. The Telstra sell-off has been a disaster from start to finish, JWH has increased our debt but moved it from the govt accounts to private accounts.

Plus he quietly changed the definition of unemployment to help his cause.

And I wouldn't call a $10 billion surplus a sign of good economic management. It's a sign of over-taxing for the purpose of pork-barrelling.

And if it's any help I don't see union ad campaigns, don't read leftie rags and I associate with righties as much as lefties.
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DiddlySquat

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2007, 11:57:47 PM »

Which is the entire problem he Left have, they seem to regard having to pay for things as being unconnected to the things themselves.

Some things are unconnected. For example, should the farmer at the back of Bourke pay the true cost of getting electricity and phone to his property?


Sound economic management is teh foundation for a productive culture, and by productive I include decent health care for all, artistic freedom, the ability to explore our world in any of it's facets and so on.

Rubbish. It's chicken and egg. You can't have one without the other. The world just doesn't work like that.

Whilst developing a good economy we need to be educating, treating (medically) and providing for the arts.



If you're country is so bankrupt that it needs everyone working at a subsistence level then none of that will happen.


Yeah right. Next time try ridiculous exaggeration, or did I miss the hyperbolae?
 

There's the rub.  Assuming we agree that we have a very good economy (not necesarily the world's best), then are we providing adequate education and trainign opportunities?


On the latter..........definitely not IMHO. We have an acute skills shortage and a relatively high full unemployment rate (when accurately measured)


Of course, if youexpect the governemnt to pay for all those humaities and associated interests then you'll be disappointed.  You are expected to get them up and running with like minded souls rather than relying on government handouts.

When it comes to the humanities you expect it to be self-funded, but you seem to be fine about corporate welfare. I never hear you rant against that.
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Thaluikhain

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Re: Who's running the state?
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2007, 11:16:58 PM »

Yes, good economic management is important, but surely as a means to an end?


Yes, Australians are well off compared to lots of other countries.  So what?  There are a lot of countries in the world that we'd say are pretty shitty places to live...being better than them is no reason that improvement in our own country isn't a good thing.
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