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Author Topic: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)  (Read 3435 times)

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Heinz_Guderian

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The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« on: March 09, 2007, 12:53:14 AM »

Given that politicians meet lobbyists all the time, what, in objective terms, is wrong with having lunch with Brian Burke?
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Fritz

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2007, 07:57:12 AM »

Fair question Heinz. I guess the crux comes down to the fact that a lobbyist is just a lobbyist until he is a convicted crimminal. I would think that if you are in a position, like a politician, you would need to have processes in place to ensure that your actions both business and private are representing of your constituents. Meeting with a convicted crimminal and having lunch with him is probably not in the best interests of desired outcomes that you may be working towards. In fact, I believe they would be a hinderance.
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Emperor Fadeaway

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2007, 10:35:48 AM »

What's wrong with sitting down and having lunch with Al Capone? Apart from the fact that he's actually dead and if you claimed to have done this in 2005 you'd have to be a luntic?  But yeh, apart from that, nothing's wrong with it, it's just a bit of lunch and a chat, isn't it?

The problem is the association itself.  The fact that it may seem that Rudd's ascension to the leadership was somehow influenced by Burke.  It's common knowledge that Burke still exerts influence over members of the WA ALP.  All leadership ballots are a numbers game, and if Rudd depended on Burke for the WA numbers, then even you can see how this isn't the best way to obtain the leadership Heinz.  Or at least I hope you can see it.

There's no suggestion that Rudd is implicated in some shady dealings, there's no suggestion that things actually happened the way I've suggested, but the fact that he may be somehow indebted to Burke is bad enough.  And sure, you can argue that he should be assumed innocent until proven guilty, but you know that doesn't wash.  One needs to be above suspicion, simple as that.
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Mez

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 01:38:05 PM »


There's no suggestion that Rudd is implicated in some shady dealings, there's no suggestion that things actually happened the way I've suggested..

Actually, JHo and Costello ARE suggesting it - very loudly!  And monotonously.
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Heinz_Guderian

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2007, 03:54:17 PM »

okay...

Burke was convicted of fraud and has done his time. This would normally mean a person can do any job they wish to do.  So does that mean lobbying is not an acceptable job for a former criminal?  Is it the upheld criminal charge that's the issue, or the gaol time?  I've gone down for offensive language and dangerous driving, does that mean I can't be a lobbyist?  Many jobs specify 'a criminal background check' but I've never been told what this means.

So again...

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Emperor Fadeaway

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2007, 06:03:50 PM »

Actually, JHo and Costello ARE suggesting it - very loudly!  And monotonously.

No, that's just what you're choosing to hear.  The suggestion is merely that Rudd is no longer above suspicion.  And he should be.  I think it's perfectly reasonable that an explanation be forthcoming.
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Emperor Fadeaway

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2007, 06:07:12 PM »

okay...

Burke was convicted of fraud and has done his time. This would normally mean a person can do any job they wish to do.  So does that mean lobbying is not an acceptable job for a former criminal?  Is it the upheld criminal charge that's the issue, or the gaol time?  I've gone down for offensive language and dangerous driving, does that mean I can't be a lobbyist?  Many jobs specify 'a criminal background check' but I've never been told what this means.

So again...

Burke can do any job he wants.  What he does isn't the issue.  If his employer is happy, then I'm happy too.  If his clients are happy, then I'm happy for him and and his clients as well.

The point is that the PM of this country shouldn't be associating with him.  Of that I am certain.  And Rudd wants to be PM, does he not?
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Fanatical Apathist

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2007, 07:46:19 PM »

To tell you the truth, I'm a bit spooked by all these pollies racing to fall om their swords for having met the man. This bizarre witchunt on both sides of the fence is doing nothing more than granting Burke more power than he actually ever had.

Yes, he's a crim, and yes, he's done time. But for Christ's sake, if we crucified everyone who'd had dealing with a crook, I'd be in gaol for dobbing in the mate who still hasn't returned  the garden tools he borrowed.
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Mez

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2007, 08:38:28 PM »

Hello, sweet FA!

*waves*
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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2007, 10:17:28 PM »

To tell you the truth, I'm a bit spooked by all these pollies racing to fall om their swords for having met the man. This bizarre witchunt on both sides of the fence is doing nothing more than granting Burke more power than he actually ever had.

Yeah I was thinking that last night.

There's also that new bizzo with that Labor guy standing down for providing a reference for Tony Mokbel a few years ago - and now Labor's doing an audit to see who else has provided references for dodgy people.

Libs are going through their ranks with fine tooth combs as well, it 'seems'.

They're all trying really hard to polish those halos, eh?
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Heinz_Guderian

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2007, 10:19:12 PM »

Burke can do any job he wants.  What he does isn't the issue.  If his employer is happy, then I'm happy too.  If his clients are happy, then I'm happy for him and and his clients as well.

The point is that the PM of this country shouldn't be associating with him.  Of that I am certain.  And Rudd wants to be PM, does he not?

No, you keep skirting around the point: firstly, you have just stated that the Prime Minister should have a different standard to other community members.  Is this true, and if so what other 'special' things should a PM, or aspiring PM, or former PM(?) do or not do, that a 'normal' member of the community should do.  Are there intermediate rules for ministers and/or premiers?

Secondly, and please try to answer this one if you can, is there something special about Burke, something special about the crime of fraud, or does this apply to all former criminals?

Please fellow Chasers, don't post excuses for diversion until someone actually spells out what the rules are.
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Thaluikhain

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2007, 11:22:45 PM »

Rudd is supposed to "not look dodgy".  Meeting a criminal might make him look dodgy.  That's about it.  It's not that he has done something wrong, it's that it can be made to look like he has...if anyone cared...the opinion polls seem to say the public don't consider this much of an issue.

Heh...if I was Burke, I'd be popping up at functions everywhere...so lots of people had to resign suddenly...
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Emperor Fadeaway

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2007, 03:56:26 PM »

No, you keep skirting around the point: firstly, you have just stated that the Prime Minister should have a different standard to other community members.  Is this true, and if so what other 'special' things should a PM, or aspiring PM, or former PM(?) do or not do, that a 'normal' member of the community should do.  Are there intermediate rules for ministers and/or premiers?

I hope you're not somehow suggesting that politicans are allowed to act in the same way as private citizens?  I've always thought you were a little crazy, but this is just nonsense.  I guess you'll be fine with me arguing that Senator Santoro is "just a shareholder" and there was no reason for him to resign if every other shareholder in the companies he held shares in didn't also resign from their respective jobs.  I mean, since when is holding shares worse than chatting to a convicted criminal? 

Or what about Kelvin Thompson saying that he thought someone was a good bloke, when it turned out he was something other than a good bloke?  I mean, I've called people good blokes before, and I'm certain that at one of those times the person I was referring to wasn't that lovely at all.  Does that mean I should resign too? 

Your comment really didn't require a response because the proposition made was entirely ludicrious, but I gave you one anyway.   :lol:

Secondly, and please try to answer this one if you can, is there something special about Burke, something special about the crime of fraud, or does this apply to all former criminals?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Burke or the fact that he was a fraudster.  People who hold public office shouldn't consort with criminals.  It looks bad.  No, it's not illegal to have a coffee with a convicted criminal, it just makes people wonder about what sort of a person you might be if you do.  If you want to hold public office, people shouldn't be wondering.  There's millions of cases throughout history where such behaviour has been detrimental to a individuals prospects.  I just gave you 2 that happened in the last couple of weeks.  Lets call it an occupational hazard, shall we?

Please fellow Chasers, don't post excuses for diversion until someone actually spells out what the rules are.

There aren't any.  There's just common sense.  If you require rules, then you obviously have no common sense whatsoever.

I said it in my initial post, one needs to be above suspicion.  Think about what this phrase means.  It covers the entirety of this topic.  Yes, all of it.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 03:59:28 PM by fadeaway »
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Heinz_Guderian

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2007, 08:20:46 PM »

Fadey, I am not making assertions here about what is and isn't acceptable: I am inviting you to.  You can say it's acceptable or not- up to you.  But what I'm trying to do (and am finally succeeding in doing) is getting you to explain the objective standards against which you are making your judgments.

Naturally we expect Johnny Howard to constantly re-define his 'objective' standards- they vary day-to-day and almost minute-to-minute.  If Santo was, say, Downer or Ruddock, Howard would be 'standing by him' with no real explanation and none demanded by the pussy media. They follow your advice and don;t require 'rules', hence we live in this relativistic Howardland (and Iemmaland, Bracksland etc) where standards, far from being 'commonsense', are more 'the most abuse we can get away with and keep office.  It might sound like paradise to you, but all the rules that restrict my freedom are objective and non-negotiable.

Frankly, I'd rather have politicans who consort with criminals but can maintain consistent standards. I'm not saying this is Rudd necessarily.  But if more people asked more questions like this, we'd live in a better country.

My fascination with this Burke thing is how thoroughly the media have failed to ask the questions I'm asking you. And forget your 'above suspicion' crap: normally, like the robotic conservative cheer-squad, you apply two utterly different sets of standards. Unless you're going to damnad Howard go down for meeting porn-man?  Or does it not count when he hasn't yet been convicted, or the politician didn't know... suddenly 'looking good' doesn't matter.
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Fritz

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Re: The challenge for Fritz (or anyone else)
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2007, 08:23:06 PM »

But isn't Howaard making an example of this over the representative who failed to declare his share portfolio??
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