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Author Topic: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!  (Read 23822 times)

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pseudonym

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2006, 05:37:33 PM »

Have we, or is it just a natural phenomenom tat is speeding up because we are getting closer to the sun (or is it getting closer to us?)?

We're getting closer to the sun, are we?  In the past 500 years, we've moved closer to the sun, or the sun has moved closer to us?  Really?  Care to post a link?

Better wipe your mouth (or fingers) there, Az - you seem to be dribbling shit.
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Ankh

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2006, 05:40:18 PM »

Have we, or is it just a natural phenomenom tat is speeding up because we are getting closer to the sun (or is it getting closer to us?)?

Actually, we're very slowly moving away from the sun.

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Azazel

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2006, 05:54:11 PM »

Closer to or further away, either way the sun is burning itself out and expanding and when it goes out we will have the ice age to end any thought of "global warming". Yes human kind may be speeding up the effects of "global warming" but it is going to happen anyway and by the time it does we will all be dead. So don't worry, be happy!
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Hammo

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2006, 12:41:16 AM »

I may have possibly thought of a way to create electricity from the heat of the earth, making a way of reducing the heat in the atmosphere (or in the crust, either way) and converting it into electricity, a form we can use that isn't in itself heat.

We need large colums. Think of a fractinal distillation plant, but much much taller. One such that the temperature in the atmosphere is much higher at the bottom as compared to the top. Fill it with a substance what would be gasseous at the bottom, but liquid at the top. Have the condensed liquid running down spiralling tubes at the outside of the structure. The tubes must be permeable to gasses, but no to liquids. As the liquid falls towards the bottom, little turbine blades are turned at a small generator. Then, when the liquid evaporates, it will rise up toward the top of the tower, turning more tubines on the way, before condensing and running back down...

I wonder if that would work? you'd need a shitload of them to cool the earth down any, but I guess it may work.


See, if you sit and brainstorm a way to cool down the earth, you might just think of something!
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Ankh

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2006, 12:44:13 AM »

I wasn't being sarcastic or condescending.  I was being serious.

What the fuck can we do aside from just keep on going as we have been?

Recycle your milk cartons, save water when you can, make sure you don't have more lights on than you need and use public transport wherever possible.  Aside from that, the average person can't do anything significant.

Why try?

Because it's the right thing to do.

It's too late to save a lot of species which will become extinct over the next few years, but if we can start doing something..then at least that's a beginning, as opposed to throwing our hands up and surrendering. The contributors to global warming aren't a mystery - it's man-made. Anything man-made can be controlled by us also. We're always making a big deal out of people who contributed to and made the ultimate sacrifice for our democracy. Maybe we should consider using it, rather than just talk about how pleasant it is to live in one. It's time to force political leaders to stop umming and ahhing over the issue, and start doing EVERY little thing they can to bring Australia into line with our obligations as part of the global response to global warming. If Howard felt that he could lose an election by not signing up to Kyoto, and seriously putting money and tax breaks towards alternative energies, and industry regulation - or Beazley felt that he could win an election by promising these steps, then as far as this nation is concerned at least, we would be part of a burgeoning worldwide movement to restore climate stability.

Of course there are the grassroots individual options as well, but big steps require broad political action. And this requires a sizeable and implacable environmental vote.


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Ankh

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2006, 12:56:02 AM »

It is just a natural cycle of the earth. The polar caps were not in existance when the dinosaurs were around, they only appeared during the ice age, and we still have not completely come out of said ice age, hence we still have polar caps. they are not meant to be there in the natural cycle of the world. As for polar bears, they adapted to the cold and did not die out. As far as the fate of human kind, or mammals in general, we are fucked, literally. If the natural way of the world does not kill us all, we will do it ourselves. The insects are to be the next rulers of the world one day, then in years to come something will happen that will wipe them out and some other form of life will come into its own. It is only natural that as the sun expands, (due to burning all of its mass and therefore ruducing its own gravity, allowing the gassious substance that it is made up of, to expand) that the planets will get closer to it and become warmer, hence solar system warming. This said warming will cause another planet to become fertile and breed life of some kind starting the wheel of life all over again.
Thats my theory and I'm sticking to it.

I don't know how long it's been since we last had polar ice caps, but you mentioned dinosaurs..and that was 65 million years ago. And if you're saying that there's some kind of cycle, that indicates that there were ice caps before that period too. My knowledge of the earth's history, is that this isn't the case. The earth has been cooling since it's origins. If we are due for anything, it's probably another ice age, of which there have been many. Your post speaks of ice age in the singular.

As for the sun expanding, that will be just before she goes supernova on our arses. The whole process will pretty quickly make life a non-event in the whole solar system. But this is millions of years in the future. No doubt the human species is doomed eventually - as is the whole universe. But better in a few million years than within the next century.


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Ankh

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2006, 01:03:48 AM »

I hope the electricity you're using to run your computer is sourced from wind/solar power generation  :-)

We all have to live in the modern world. But it's like saying that if you shit, you're contributing to pollution ..so therefore you're a hypocrite every time you talk about reducing pollution. And I'm sure many of us would use wind/solar power for our computers if it was available.

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Hammo

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2006, 01:40:59 AM »

I don't know how long it's been since we last had polar ice caps, but you mentioned dinosaurs..and that was 65 million years ago. And if you're saying that there's some kind of cycle, that indicates that there were ice caps before that period too. My knowledge of the earth's history, is that this isn't the case. The earth has been cooling since it's origins. If we are due for anything, it's probably another ice age, of which there have been many. Your post speaks of ice age in the singular.

There have been several known ice ages in the past. The last thing I remember reading is that we've only recently come out of a ice age (about 10000 years or so?)

As for the sun expanding, that will be just before she goes supernova on our arses. The whole process will pretty quickly make life a non-event in the whole solar system. But this is millions of years in the future. No doubt the human species is doomed eventually - as is the whole universe. But better in a few million years than within the next century.

ummm... no. Our sun will never go supernova. It is not massive enough for that. It will expand rather slowly, as its hydrogen stores start to thin, and other substances make up greater proportions of the fusion products (anything up to lead, you'll find that the centre of the sun will be a cloud of lead plasma).

In order to understand what's going on, you need to understand somethying about the time it takes for the light to escape from the sun. All of the energy is derived from within the sphere, not from the surface, as it tends to be too cold. What happens in the core takes an incredible amount of time to reach the surface. I think it may be in the order of years. The force exerted by all this energy, balanced by its gravitational force is what governs the size of the star.

Now, I can't remember exactly why, but the gravitational force of the sun weakens during this stage, and the force exerted by escaping energy from the core causes the sun to expand. At last, the fusion will halt, as the sun decreases its density and temperature [energy] enough. At this point, there will no longer be any of the energy holding the outer layers of the sun out, and it will all collapse inwards[implode] under the gravity, which has now become the stronger force. Hence, it will form a white dwarf (I think, from memory).

In a larger star, there is enough matter in the core after the inner layers have collapsed inwards (but not the outer layers) to continue fusion, and with the excess energy build up (remember how long it takes to reach the surface, in a really big star, that's a really big amount of energy) of energy, will literally all escape at once, creating a massive explosion, blowing the outer layers of the star away. At least, I'm fairly sure that's how it happens.


Anyway, point being that our star will not supernova.

And, as the universe ages, its energy is decreased, as is the natural order of things. Everything in the universe tends to fall to its state of lowest possible energy. And it will happen.
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Ankh

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2006, 01:54:11 AM »

There have been several known ice ages in the past. The last thing I remember reading is that we've only recently come out of a ice age (about 10000 years or so?)


Indeed. But I don't think there's been a cycle for the ice caps though. Once they arrived, they've always been there...right?


ummm... no. Our sun will never go supernova. It is not massive enough for that. It will expand rather slowly, as its hydrogen stores start to thin, and other substances make up greater proportions of the fusion products (anything up to lead, you'll find that the centre of the sun will be a cloud of lead plasma).

In order to understand what's going on, you need to understand somethying about the time it takes for the light to escape from the sun. All of the energy is derived from within the sphere, not from the surface, as it tends to be too cold. What happens in the core takes an incredible amount of time to reach the surface. I think it may be in the order of years. The force exerted by all this energy, balanced by its gravitational force is what governs the size of the star.

Now, I can't remember exactly why, but the gravitational force of the sun weakens during this stage, and the force exerted by escaping energy from the core causes the sun to expand. At last, the fusion will halt, as the sun decreases its density and temperature [energy] enough. At this point, there will no longer be any of the energy holding the outer layers of the sun out, and it will all collapse inwards[implode] under the gravity, which has now become the stronger force. Hence, it will form a white dwarf (I think, from memory).

In a larger star, there is enough matter in the core after the inner layers have collapsed inwards (but not the outer layers) to continue fusion, and with the excess energy build up (remember how long it takes to reach the surface, in a really big star, that's a really big amount of energy) of energy, will literally all escape at once, creating a massive explosion, blowing the outer layers of the star away. At least, I'm fairly sure that's how it happens.


Anyway, point being that our star will not supernova.

And, as the universe ages, its energy is decreased, as is the natural order of things. Everything in the universe tends to fall to its state of lowest possible energy. And it will happen.

You're right. I just looked it up and found this wicked site: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=285   &   http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=232

Thanks Hammo. Astronomy rocks.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 02:09:12 AM by Ankh »
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voiceofreason

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2006, 02:13:17 AM »

Ankh is right about the urgent need to rally worldwide grassroots support for immediate changes to be implemented to slow down the warming process long enough to buy time to implement more permanent solutions.

I truly believe that if Howard and Bush's views are allowed to prevail, we are doomed to follow the dinosaurs into extinction.  In OUR lifetime!  NOT as the fools would have you believe at some far distant time in the future.

The 3 biggest threats to our civilization are Apathy, Complacency and worst of all GREED.

The time to act is NOW!
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Mez

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2006, 07:59:30 AM »

Well, VoiceOfReason, you've given us a subject to chew over, haven't you?

You'll be aware, I suppose, that leading scientists on global warming are now advocating the building of many, many more nuclear power stations to reduce greenhouse emissions.

Your opinion on this, please?

I'm afraid I still can't believe it's not better to leave uranium in the ground.  But then, I'm a hippy. :-)
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voiceofreason

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2006, 08:50:06 AM »

Well, VoiceOfReason, you've given us a subject to chew over, haven't you?

You'll be aware, I suppose, that leading scientists on global warming are now advocating the building of many, many more nuclear power stations to reduce greenhouse emissions.

Your opinion on this, please?

I'm afraid I still can't believe it's not better to leave uranium in the ground.  But then, I'm a hippy. :-)

Unfortunately the seriousness of this dilemma requires immediate action, and as such the realistic solutions are going to have to be stopgaps by nature of the beast.  The only achievable solution to achieve the before mentioned aim of slowing down the warming process long enough to buy time to implement a more permanent people friendly one, unfortunately involves the use of nuclear fission.

Maybe instead of expending huge resources building the International Space Station, the powers that be could look at building a transport vehicle capable of carrying a bulk load of waste that could be launched from orbit and ponted to our Sun.  This idea might even find friends amoung those who are worried about the Sun running out of fuel.  Kill 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.

I'm afraid that while I still believe it's better to leave uranium in the ground, we can't.  But then, I'm a realist.
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Azazel

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2006, 08:56:38 AM »

Didn't you watch futurama, they tried that, but the junk only came back
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Mez

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2006, 08:59:19 AM »

Yeah, I thought you might say that, VOR.  I'm puzzled by the whole thing - and scared - I remember Chernobyl like it was yesterday. :-(

I'm afraid the 'space' or 'sun' solution for nuclear waste has a way to go before it's safe enough to lift the payload from earth.  Space-shuttle launching accidents are still far too common for that yet.

Also, I'd be concerned about shooting anything into the sun.  We just don't know enough, and we never will unless we keep the Space Station.

However, if we immediately ceased and desisted from our petrol war in Irag, it might be possible to do both - keep the scientific research going, AND work on dumping radioactive waste in space.
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Azazel

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Re: Looking for a topic really worthy of discussion? Try this!
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2006, 09:16:13 AM »

 According to our enviroment minister even if we were to shut down Australia, to stop producing greehouse gasses, China would have replaced our emmisions within 10 months. So, if this is the case, it seems to be a  pointless argument.
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